SUPER Street Fighter 4

[Pikachu]

No, if you look carefully, a rose hits Bison to knock him out of PC. I had to watch that multiple times because I refused to believe what I saw at first .

I told Jutin to not use hop kick too much days ago. He might still be in Guilty Gear mode looking for overheads to abuse... Though I am certain he's hesitant about his Kunai execution because he usually times it wrong and gets thrown when he tries to vortex.

Dudley fucks with my range so badly, especially with boxer. I need to get more familiar with that one. Low Fierce loses to Dudley j.rh badly too, so it's kinda scary to get rushed by Dudley without charge. It's like, I have to think more when playing boxer, wtf?

[buhwhyen]

Apparently reverse screw blow is still doable in ssf4. I guess I'll be testing to see if it's really true. Hope it is, Dudley's ultras are pretty useless atm. By useless, they're really stupidly situation to hit, even if you do you have to hit a grounded opponent or do no damage.

[Pikachu]

I saw Glen accidentally do one the other night. You're right in that it's very situational.

[buhwhyen]

www.levelup-series.com/cicada/

Frame data scans for the new characters. Link is to a directory for the pdf files.

[buhwhyen]

Uhh..I think Bison might end up top tier. Viper is almost definitely gonna be top tier. Sagat is pretty terrible. Ryu is also...surprisingly good, he probably won't be top tier, but I think he'll stay relatively high mid tier. Ibuki is crazy good. Dudley is pretty good if you don't get zoned or face runaway, which sadly a decent number of characters are really good at. Juri...I think will be pretty good too.

Bison seems to have more frame advantage off his normals, been seeing a lot of strings into scissor kick and overall seems safer. And his abortion ultra is really ridiculous. It hits absurdly fast, and at the right distance you can choose to either cross up or not, making it a 50/50. It also leaves you at a relatively far distance on block, you can't shoryuken right after block with Ryu, probably can kara uppercut with Sagat, but that damage isn't that crazy anymore.

Sagat uppercut does donkey shit damage now. Tiger knee is the way to go for damage combos, unless you combo to ultra. His normals are more or less the same, but tiger knee is way worse now, it loses quite a bit where it didn't before. Doesn't seem as safe on block now, either. And with all the new characters having good ways to get around his fireballs, plus the overall damage reduction on his moves/combos. I think he won't get played too much now.

Ryu's normals are like...good. His fierce and jab srk have less invulnerability, but strong srk seems to work pretty well. And frankly, you can still beat out a lot of stuff even with the nerf to srk invincibility. The damage nerf sucks...but just don't combo into ultra with fierce anymore and it's not too bad. Links seem easier, but more importantly, st.rh is a useable anti air. It beats most things not shoto j.rh if you space it properly.

Guile...I think is much better, but I don't think he's that good, still. He seems really clunky and it's still impossible to get people off you if they can cross up. He just has some really fag match ups that I don't know how you'll be able to deal with. His ultra is hittable...but there aren't many ways to consistently land it.

Dudley...just has some man fag match ups. Mainly against Dhalsim (completely unwinnable), ibuki, viper, seth, honda (dunno, but it seems like it would be a bitch). Really, you can't do much if they play a safe run away style. Again, no way to consistently land his ultra, which is a huge detriment. Though his EX combos do good damage if you can land them.

Viper still does good damage, burn kicks are not quite as safe (they're still mostly safe), but they still have crazy hit boxes. Her main buff came in the form of everyone else's damage nerfs. Her risk/reward went way way up.

Ibuki is crazy. She can buffer that slide special move from standing strong? If it hits, she combos into the slide. This seems to be her bnb from a random jab string or when zoning mid screen. Overall, she's really safe and her target combo can do some crazy mix ups on hit cause you can SJC the last hit that launches your opponent and Ibuki lands on the other side WITH frame advantage (or so it seems).

Ken is pretty good too. His normals seem better and his srk is still effing dumb. I still feel like his normals are really slow/laggy, but it seems like he really only got buffs and no nerfs. (well mid tier got buffs, top tier got nerfs)

Juri is pretty safe. Only her pinwheel kick and dive kicks are really unsafe on block. Her shorts lead into pinwheel kicks, EX pinwheel kicks is pretty good and quite scrubby. It can hit cross ups too. Her dive kicks armor break and frankly are fast enough to hit on reaction if you see a fireball mid screen, I think. Her CC ultra is hilariously useless, but her other ultra is...okay? I don't know if you can combo into it.

Dhalsim needs to get nerfed. He's like...just as safe as in vanilla SF4 and his new ultra is really good. It's really aggravating how many free wins he gets on match up alone.

Zangief seems pretty bad now, thank god. Punishable lariat and some random tweaks to normals raped him pretty bad. His damage off 360 seems lower too?

T.hawk does fucking stupid damage. His 360 damage and ultra 720 damage are absolutely retarded. 720 + EX 360 = at least 70-80% damage. Otherwise he's very...whatever. His dives are alright, but super unsafe on block. Jab jab 360 is annoying to get out of.

Guy is really scrubby. Holy eff his dash overhead/slide is fast. Seems relatively solid, his "hooligan combo" or whatever its called is really good. It's basically what cammy's hooligan combo should be. That fucking elbow drop has stupid priority. And his stupid srk shouldn't hit both sides so well, you really can't cross him up safely (I think).

Chun li got buffs too. Her normals are still good, I think some of them got buffed, mainly st.strong and cr.mk. Her new ultra is pretty damn good, you can anti air with it pretty well. Lotta random EX LL into ultra is pretty good.

Boxer is still good. It doesn't feel like he changed at all? I'm sure he did, but I can't tell what changed. He's probably still gonna be solidly top tier.

Akuma is still lame. But thankfully less lame.

Seth is also still lame. But again, thank you nerfs.

Gen...is also ^.

Cody is hilariously safe. Good god there are going to be so many Cody players. His hit confirm into criminal upper is a 3? frame link. That shit is too easy for such good damage and safety on block. Also lotta safe options and a pretty good jump in/cross up. His ultras aren't useless, but I don't think they're amazing either. Overall he's just...solid. No buttfucking crazy damage or mix ups, but no glaring weaknesses either.

Cammy seems mostly unchanged? I know her damage took a big hit, but other than that I think her normals got a little better. Her cannon spike and ultra do way less damage. Her combo into ultra does ~80-100 less damage. WTF.

Rose seems to be alright. Seems to be overall safer to throw out her drill special. Her normals seem to be slightly better too. And her new ultra is fucking hilarious. You can cross up people jumping in and set up some really fucking ambiguous cross ups. It's also a get off me button. You really can't do that much while she has the orbs out.

Sakura...seems terrible. Still gimmicky mix ups after landing her EX hurricane kick, but I don't think she got that much better.

Adon is terrible. He has some gimmicky ways to land damage, but I think overall hes pretty bad. His dive kick is pretty good against fireball characters, but seriously unsafe on block. I don't think his normals are very good, and it seems like he just spams specials and doesn't have a lot of ways to combo into them?

Claw (vega) is way better now. Seems like they changed a lot of the properties on his moves. Not really sure what's good and what isn't but I think he'll be playable at least.

Dee Jay is...not ST DJ. Normals are alright, but not amazing. His fireball doesn't seem to be that good. Slide is unsafe on block. J.rh isn't that good. Razer kick is...not that great either. I haven't seen anyone use his machine gun punch? Dunno what it's called. I think he's just a worse Guile in pretty much every way.

Rufus seems to be really good in this game too. His damage is lower, but he still has a really abusive dive kick and a million ways to hit his ultra. His new ultra is pretty funny, and is at least useful enough to pick in certain match ups (unlike most new ultras).

Makoto is freaking useless. Wow did Capcom epic fail with her.

Hakan is really...bad. Really awkward to play against, but he's just not good.

Dan...got better. He's really aggravating to play against cause his run is really annoyingly safe (running backwards). Lotta gimmicky shit can come out of playing him. Lotta stupid ways to bait people, I think it'll be really frustrating to play against him if you aren't familiar with the match up. His moves seem to have real priority and don't just lose to everything.

Abel...is pretty awesome. His air grab can actually anti air now. Otherwise he seems mostly unchanged. Wheel kick is a little safer on block now? Not sure though. His new ultra is pretty good too.

Haven't played a good Blanka yet, so...not sure what to say about him. Seemed unchanged? I assume he got some buffs.

Gouken? Haven't played him either.

Again, haven't played against a Fei Long yet.

El Fuerte seems better overall. His moves seem to be mostly unchanged, except his command grab off run. Seems to be easier to hit that now. Though to be honest, the Fuerte's I've seen haven't really used ANY normals.

[Pikachu]

Huh, seems like you got to play against a lot of different characters than I have for the past week. Might be an effect of more people getting the game, especially since I'm finally seeing more Kens. I'll fill in a few parts that I've seen/know about.

Boxer's low jab should be one frame slower. Aside from the universal damage nerf, that's his only real change aside from Ultra 2. Some people think it's great, I think it's crap. Jumpable unless they have a move out. Blah for 720.

I think some of Bison's weak moves got an extra frame of hit stun, but as far as frame advantage goes, he's more or less the same. The hit boxes might have improved... I know st.rh is confirmed to be better. I still have to play around with more psycho crusher crossups, but some can be very ambiguous.

Juri juggles Ultra 2 off her dive kicks, either a regular one at the right distance, or EX off the wall bounce. I think she can also juggle off j.mp, but if you hit a j.mp, you go into dive kicks. Not tons of setups, but her regular damage is very solid.

Dhalsim drills are good. I haven't seen enough people remember to use them again. It seems like there is enough time to visually confirm a drill hit into super, but I don't play him enough to know. Come to think of it, I know nothing about Ultra 2... wanna elaborate on that?

100% agreed with Chun. Kikosho is the very reason I started playing her. St. strong is really gay, and landing EX legs happens often enough. Basically, if you get hit with low short, j.hp, or somehow get nailed with EX SBK about a quarter screen away from the corner (I spazzed this randomly in a match to see if it'd work), you can hit Kikosho. And it chips like a mofo.

Cody is all about frame traps. I've read up on and used him in training mode (I need more practice with him), and he's got some insane strings. I did play against one guy who knew what he was doing and got wrecked... his f+strong frame traps are very strong. On hit, you easily link low jab into Criminal Upper hit confirm. If offline, you can even go for low strong right after for the CU. Otherwise, on block, Cody goes for EX rocks, which has some huge frame advantage. I think the key to really unlocking his potential is to fish for CH fierce hits. He can already link back to a lot of normals on CH fierce, but if you use Ultra 2 with Cody, CH Fierce into EX rocks into Ultra 2 is LOL.

DJ puts on a lot of pain with his combos. Machine Gun Punch is really good, especially EX, where it can set up juggles, or Ultra 2 in the corner. Otherwise, he is as you say... watered down ST.

Fei Long's new Ultra is a counter. I learned this the hard way. It does a lot of damage. Other than that, he's still a pile. I think his overhead is a bit faster, but.. whatever.

Gouken has an easier time using his tatsu for AA. Besides this, he just likes to back throw.

Sakura's Ultra 2 is nice guaranteed damage, rather than trying for the reset. Her st.rh is faster, but it's not CvS2 fast. Her j.mk crossup does cross up, but not like any of her previous games.

Blanka's hop is faster. His c.hp should have a better hit box, but it's so slow. I can't use it in a brain dead manner like CvS2. Blanka's sweep, however, seems to come from SNK. As a side note, it may be a good idea to learn how your specific characters punish Shout of Earth. Just keep in mind that if you're absolutely full screen, the ground version's first hit won't touch you, but the second will.

I thought Dudley could land Corkscrew Cross like... everywhere. Jab uppers, sweep, EX MGP in corner, or some fancy combination therein. I'm trying to learn him btw, because he seems kinda fun at the very least.

[buhwhyen]

EDIT:
Dudley can super late cancel his specials into super...which makes testing this stuff really annoying. Also a lot less appealing to try if you have full meter in a real match. There's a pretty long delay between the dash punches and ultra.

Corner only:
-EX Cross counter, ultra 2. Not sure how much damage it does, I'm much too lazy to set up training dummies to test it.

Corner only:
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, jab MGB - 245 (233 if you don't get all the jab mgb hits)
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, jab MGB, ultra - 311, 324
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, sweep - 251
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, sweep, ultra - 361
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, fierce jet upper 227 (239 EX jet upper)
-sweep, jab MGB 190 (220 strong MGB, fierce is too awkward to time)
-sweep, jab MGB, ultra - 322
-sweep, ultra - 364 (^ Lol.)
-sweep, sweep -200 (you should be able to hit 3 in corner, but the timing is really unforgiving)
-sweep, sweep, ultra - 390. This is pretty brainless
-sweep, sweep, super - 480. Lol.
-st.rh x jab jet upper x FADC, sweep, ultra 445


Anywhere:
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, dash straight - 261
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, dash upper - 263
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, dash straight, ultra - 383

-sweep, fierce MGB - 160/180/190 (depends how many hits you get)
-sweep, dash upper - 220
-sweep, dash straight - 200
-sweep, dash straight, ultra - 230-380 (depends how deep you hit the dash straight), does 428 in the corner
-sweep dash straight, super - 460 mid screen, 480 corner

-st.rh x jab jet upper, ultra - 390 (less if you don't hit the rh really deep) Can replace ultra w/ super in corner only for more damage.

-fierce jet upper x FADC, ultra - 364 (same damage for EX)
-st.rh, fierce jet upper x FADC, ultra - 408
-naked ultra 2 - 448

-st.rh x EX MGB, dash straight - 280
-st.rh x EX MGB, dash upper - 291

Note about dash punches in the corner. You have to push the punch or kick input for the straight/upper really quickly after the hcf+short for the dash. Otherwise you cross up.

You can cancel out of target combos only if the last attack was special cancelable normally. So anything ending in st.mk or st.strong can cancel into specials. Making cr.short, mk somewhat useful? Though it seems to fast to really hit confirm.

Thunderbolt is mostly useless. Might be okay for chip damage, but it's not controllable and which side it lands on is predictable depending EX or not EX. MK and RH versions I guess are to catch back dashes. Overall this move is slow and shitty, I think.

Ultra 2 is...easier to hit, most of the time. Ultra 1 is better against shotos and fireball characters in a similar fashion that Chun-li and Abels ultra 1 is. Except it doesn't go as far. Though you can catch a lot of people throwing meaty fireballs when they shouldn't on wake up.

Ultra 1 is fast enough to punish some stuff on block, namely Balrog TAP if it hits kinda? deep and headbutt on block, blocked srk, cannon spike (I think). Ultra 2 generally doesn't reach very far and really can't be used to punish anything useful.

******************
Dhalsim's new ultra is a throw. But not just any throw. It's an airborne throw. What. The. Fuck. Unlike a 360/720, Dhalsim needs to be airborne to use ultra 2, and it grabs with quite a large bit of range a grounded opponent. Yes, you can do it after a teleport. It's fucking retarded. There is minimal start up after the flash, so you can jump it if you're blocking during the ultra flash. But it gives Dhalsim damage options that he really just shouldn't have.

Chun-Li's 50/50 game is just fucking stupid. I'm gonna get thrown a billion times until I figure out an option select that beats or at least trades with cr.lk cause 50/50 with ultra off 1 meter regardless of positioning is retarded. And it seems just as easy to instant overhead in this game too because that was necessary.


Random...but counter hit means no damage scaling? Less damage scaling?



Yes...Dudley *can* land corkscrew cross in a bunch of places. But none of them are really...worth it? I'll update with some numbers after I finish cooking/eating. But the situations to hit corkscrew cross include:

-any launcher into dash straight, ultra. It's a link, and not terribly forgiving at that. Though really easy to hit confirm cause you have to launch into the dash straight.
-corner EX mgb. Though...I think the damage isn't that good because EX MGB just has too many hits, especially seeing as how you really should never just throw them out randomly.
-trade jet uppercut x dash straight, ultra. This shit is dirty, but trading uppercuts and remaining grounded isn't easy, though I try to buffer the dash every time I anti-air with a jet upper just in case.
-reverse screw blow, ala 3rd strike. The motion is hcf+kick, qcb+3 punches. It's easy to execute, bitchy to set up.

specific combos:
-cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, mk? dash straight (punch strength doesn't matter), ultra. (st.jab, st.rh is a 2 frame link, opposed to a 1 frame link from cr.jab)
-sweep (you'll never hit this shit), dash straight (kick strength depending on range, though mk is your best bet if you're not sure), ultra.
-jet uppercut (don't know if strength matters) trade, mk dash straight, ultra.
-(corner) cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, sweep, ultra. This one is a bitch to time properly
-(corner) cr.jab, st.jab, st.rh x EX MGB, jab MGB, ultra. I think this one works, but you add on too many hits.

IMO, if you're already in the corner when you land a launcher, dash punches cross up and don't hit. Similar to how Sagat has to omit f+rh in corner combos into ultra 1. (I know for mk/rh dashes, haven't tested short. But I assume it'll still cross up).

The problem with combo'ing into corkscrew cross is that you don't hit the "full" ultra. So you get very mediocre damage. And most situations you find yourself being able to hit combos that lead to ultra have a billion hits and the ultra does like...pixels of damage. The best options are from dash straight, but the problem is finding a launcher. The only 3 options I know of are MGB, sweep, and trade jet upper.

Random Junk
mk dash has the fastest start up and typically takes you as far as you need to go. Max range sweeps seem to require rh to reach, but honestly, I doubt you'll ever hit a sweep. Short is only used near corner, I think. You might be able to use it off a midscreen EX MGB.

cr.mp and st.rh are both 4 frame start up, cr.jab is 3 frames. St.strong is really good priority and not too much recovery. f+mk is good, has +5? on hit or something good like that. f+mp sucks anus, I guess you can use it if you want something to reach ~st.fierce range but is faster than st.fierce, but you really can't do shit afterwards. f+jab reaches slightly further than st.jab, and has a target combo into...st.mp? Mostly useless, though.

There's really only 1 target combo worth learning, I think. It's cr.short, cr.mp, cr.fierce. All other ones start from st.jab? or something else dumb and not hittable.

For jumping...j.fierce is good air to air, but will whiff every time against crouching opponents not Zangief/Sagat sized, even then it whiffs a lot. It whiffs a lot in general against standing opponents, it just sucks atg. J.rh is your main jump in attack, it has r-tarded priority. J.mk is good too, 1 frame? faster start up than j.rh and is better for tick throw/high/low set ups.

cr.short, cr.jab is a -1- frame link. And cr.short ONLY links to cr.jab/st.jab. So the target combo listed above is really the only low starting "combo." Though I think you can cancel the last hit of a target combo into specials? I always forget to test this.

f+rh is your overhead. There's a target combo to st.mk which is pretty good if you just want a little more damage, and is safe on block, -3. f+rh on it's own is -1 on block, +4 on hit. So it's a 2 frame link to cr.jab or 1 frame link to st.rh on crouching opponents.

His dash punches (even if you don't throw out a punch) build meter. You should probably use this instead of regular dashing up to a knocked down opponent.

Short swing blow really is terrible in this game cause you can't hit them into super easily. And they get stuffed pretty easily. I don't really endorse using this move too much, the EX version is the only one I generally use and even then, I don't use it much because it doesn't have much (any?) invincibility and is really unsafe on block (-5). Oh yeah, you can FA this shit or crouch tech or use any EX move with armor to wreck it.

I have no clue wtf thunderbolt is for. It's a down charge move that makes dudley jump and come down like a headstomp-esque kinda thing, but doesn't need to be blocked high? And is super unsafe on block. Why he needs this I'm not sure, I think it knocks down on hit? EX might launch or something crazy like that, but I'll edit when I try it out later. (I've never used this move before)

Throwing a rose really doesn't do anything useful. No amount of hit/block stun, doesn't really stop anything or force your opponent to block. Doesn't do damage (which I'm not so opposed to), doesn't increase damage of next combo. It's just a taunt, that you can't cancel.

Jet upper is terrible non-EX. No invincibility on start up, 6 frames of start up on jab/strong versions. 4 frame start up on fierce/EX.

Learn to use cross counter. It's actually useful in this game. Though...it has 3 frame start up and no invincibility during that time, so you can't really use it as a reversal. But it really does help against grapplers (Zangief, T.hawk, occassionally Abel/Honda). In particular, it's good against shoto cross ups. But there are a lot of weird places I've been thinking it could help me out since Dudley has a lot of random blind spots. Keep in mind it's an upperbody only counter. It loses to any low hitting attack and has god awful recovery.

[Pikachu]

Kthx. Been thinking of going Ultra 2 with Dudley. The damage isn't spectacular, but at least there seem to be more opportunities to land it than Ultra 1.

[buhwhyen]

Boxer.
Headbutt -> ultra1
Hold downback charge. Do headbutt by rolling from downback to upback+punch for headbutt. Then do forward back forward + ppp? kkk? (lol) for ultra.

[Pikachu]

Was that a reply for me?

Holding PPP leaves Rog doing straight punches, KKK does uppercuts.

Juggle is done in three ways:

1. Lazy Method - use KKK juggle, and hold KKK. Only works midscreen, kkk?
2. American Method - Use KKK, let go of KKK to whiff one punch, and immediately hold KKK again. So after headbutt, Balrog will start Ultra with uppercut, then whiff once, and finish the entire sequence with uppercuts.
3. Japanese Method - After hitting with headbutt, let go of all buttons. Let the first hit naturally, whiff the second punch, and then hold KKK after.

Lazy Method is the worst, because the damage you get off Ultra is inconsistent. The only way to improve it would be to watch the height when you start the Ultra, but then that takes away the laziness and increases the risk of missing Ultra altogether.

American Method is the better lazy method. You don't need to watch the height at all, but it can sometimes be inconsistent as well.

I've moved on to using Japanese Method. It's consistent across all characters, but you do need to pay some attention because you can't hit KKK too fast or you won't whiff the appropriate punch. HOWEVER, if you try to Ultra off a trade, or you hit Ultra late, use American Method to be safe.

My way of quickly determining which juggle works best is to watch the height of the opponent's body. If they're above head level, Japanese Method. If their body is around Rog's shoulder-chest level, use American Method.

And on a tangent, I saw a Japanese match where someone linked Hosenka after rh lightning kicks. Frame data says that should be impossible, but I know what I saw. I'll link the video later.

[buhwhyen]

www.shoryuken.com/content.php?r=863-Gameinn-The-1-Super-Street-Fighter-4-Player-On-XBL-and-PSN-Has-a-Secret

[Pikachu]

Even though I know none of us play Rose seriously, SRK had an option select for her posted up. Just saw it in action today, and I decided to mention it here since it's a pretty strong tool.

Her s.forward is unthrowable (one of her standing kicks that brings her off the ground), which gives her the ability to piano forward, jab + short to option select between the throw and the kick. The kick itself seems very safe.. I saw stupid frame traps off of it (between throw and c.strong -> soul spiral). Good to know that she has these options, since she can either kick you out of your throw or tech if she messed up the timing.

Also, after any throw, she can use Ultra 2, and then fake you out with an ambiguous crossup using soul throw (she doesn't throw you... she uses the orbs as a meaty hitbox where you don't know which way to block).

If her c.fierce continues to perform as a good AA (which always has been her biggest weakness), Rose has the makings of a solid character.

[buhwhyen]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP-rprzi36E&feature=player_embedded

[Pikachu]

The full combo video by Desk, containing that preview combo:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PvhMIDW__8&feature=player_embedded

[dyuman]

Got game today... played till my hands hurt (7 hours between arcade, cpu versus, training, and challenge). Sticking with controller for now.

Focusing on Akuma. Need to do port forwarding for network play, found the numbers off shoryuken.

Really need to get better at cancelling, just can't seem to time it right (especially standing fierce cancels).

Focused on a towards the end of things on hard AI versus mode vs Abel, got to 50-50 on it before stopping. Gonna move to learning about fighting versus Bison later on.