HD Remix

[Pikachu]

Thread for HD Remix stuff. Self-explanatory. If you don't have this game for PS3, you are wrong.

[Pikachu]

Currently sticking to Chun, Vega, and Guile. Chun has worked well so far because she is still really aggressive. I have found that Fei Long and Blanka have been hard to deal with, since Fei Long has a lot of stuff that seems safe (or I cannot punish through lag) and Blanka is impossible to anti-air. Otherwise, it's a lot of the same poking with medium attacks and taking to the air with jumping short.

I think it's good they took out Claw's wall dive knockdown. Most people do not know how to deal with the crossup on the dive after the nerf. Imagine how bad it could be in Classic mode.

Guile is amazing in this game. Top tier contender for sure. His Sonic Boom mixups are: throw, new overhead (surprisingly hard to block for how slow it is), and short short super. CvS2 style, with ST damage! New RH flashkick is ridiculous. Players used to empty jump to avoid sticking out limbs to feed flashkick, but the new RH version takes that angle out perfectly.

On other notes: Cammy is interesting enough where I might pick her up. The safe Cannon Drills are amazing, and some mixups are being revealed on SRK that use some Japanese-style tactics to abuse the changes. Honda is a big fat faggot. Sagat can apparently link low forward with standing fierce into two TK's.

[buhwhyen]

I was playing almost entirely Guild because I couldn't pull of dragon punches very well. I think my main problem was the different joystick than my hori 1, but also the input timing for the punch after the dragon punch motion is much faster - which is funny because the input timing was supposed to be easier/more consistent. Though I'll probably end up playing Sagat, Ryu, and maybe Ken as well.


Fei Long seems pretty good still. I know during the beta he was one of the best characters for a while, but a lot of his mix ups are still very safe as long as your distancing doesn't suck really really bad and he has the option to go into a throw mix up more often than he should during his generally safe mix ups.


I had a lot of problems with Honda. The new jab headbutt has...a lot longer range than I'm used to (goes much further than CVS2 Honda). I think Honda is gonna be pretty good overall in this game. They took out his ocho loop and lowered priority on hundred hands, but his match-up against fireball characters (minus Ryu) seems to be a lot better (this was the main reason he was considered mid-bottom tier).


Blanka seems worse than in classic ST. Being a low tier character, I don't see how he didn't get buffed more. Maybe its just I haven't seen any good Blanka players yet, but his changes really just seem to pale in comparison.


Sagat's tiger knee is like...good. It takes up a lot of space on the screen and can be a pseudo replacement for tiger uppercut if you throw it out early and it juggles for good damage. I wonder how much good his super will end up being for him because he lost a lot with the nerfs he got. Not being able to link tiger shots after st.short/st.forward (2nd hit) is huge, and of course the obvious slower tigers sucks too. I also wonder if anyone will bother going for the cross up (j.mk) rather than adjusting spacing and going for more tiger shots.


Supposedly Guile's new RH flash kick can punish Vega's slide on block. It also has a nifty use to escape (some) cross ups on wake up. And I can't seem to get st.rh to actually work as an anti-air. It really seems that there are more changes than the ones announced. Random moves seem to have different hit boxes and/or priority. Guile's j.short seems to have way more hit stun, cr.strong has more frame advantage (easier to link into cr.short), etc.


Random note that linking crouching shorts is more difficult in this game than classic ST, but charging (seems charge time is shorter) and cross-ups are way easier. Execution seems...easier than classic ST overall, especially holding charge or executing special moves during the slow down in game.

[Pikachu]

I totally agree with you on the crossups and links. I have been crossing up and crossed up with attacks I didn't think would do so. The links with crouching short have been admittedly difficult. They feel stranger than Sagat c.lk in CvS2. It's been a bit of a problem for comboing into super for Guile, because when I space them out too much, the opponent gets pushed out of the proper distance for the super to hit, and when I hit it too fast... I get only one short, and risk getting the super blocked.

Blanka is like diet CvS2. Just go out of your way to be really scrubby and abusive of safe stuff, with the caveat that it isn't nearly as broken as A-Blanka. He is really good at punishing fireballs, though, because a heavy jump-in followed by a sweep would be unimpressive in CvS2, it can cost you a quarter of your life in HDR. One thing I wanna test is anti-air electricity. I've been hit with in on wakeup during a meaty jump-in, which shocked (haha) the hell out of me. It has only happened against bad Blanka players so far who mash, but it broke a situation that I was pretty confident would be safe and has happened enough times where I think it warrants experimenting.

Sagat is dumb. His damage potential is so scary right now. The fireballs are reasonable pokes without being abusable, so I think they have a time and place for use, but there is incentive to go for crossups and other attacks to look for openings to hit TK combos or bait jumps into uppercuts, which still do damage worth going for.

I absolutely cannot play non-charge characters online. It's still really hard to reversal uppercut, or even DP on reaction, which is unpleasant against all the jump happy people out there. I'll stick with flash kick for now.

[buhwhyen]

A note about Blanka's electricity...It does seem to have much higher priority now. It actually beats Guile's cross up every time on wakeup (did it over 10 times, was shocked every time no matter how I timed/spaced the cross up). It also beat out some pokes, Guile's cr.forward and cr.short, though I'm not sure if its because I didn't have a hit box yet, but it seems a lot better than I remember.

I also don't think short short super is that great for Guile. Overall I think cr.strong is better for hit confirming supers, since most of the time you only hit confirm into super after a jump in/cross up. Besides, with the new consistency of using his super as an anti-air, I think I'll be using it more as an anti air rather than saving it for a combo.

[Pikachu]

The big draw for short short super is that you're supposed to be able to walk up to someone and do it because two shorts allow for enough charge time. Otherwise, yes, I can use low strong in a crossup combo... but the point is to get a situation where I can force super damage through a three-way mixup off a single Sonic Boom. That's really deadly.

Edit - As an afterthought, even if short short super doesn't pan out like I think it can, you can definitely short short flash kick. Seeing as it's ST, that's the equivalent of landing a level 1 Chun super in CvS2.

Double Edit - Yeah, something about this bothered me but I couldn't figure it out until just now. Sirlin's article states the following:

"So doesn’t Guile break this rule by easily comboing low strong into super with his new motion? You’d think so, but some deep mysterious property of ST’s engine saves us. I cannot figure why this is true, but you cannot combo normal attacks into Guile’s super using this new motion. If you try, you will always get a flash kick instead. Even more deeply mysterious is that if you try to combo a normal move into super using the old, difficult motion, you CAN. This really shouldn’t be true, but somehow it is. So combing into super is no easier or more difficult than it ever was for Guile."

Oddball thing I traced back to the articles. Looks like there will be some more unintended consequences. I guess this is to be expected, but it's kind of funny that this was found on day 1.

[Pikachu]

Played some more tonight. Got a little more comfortable doing fireball/dp motions with stick + lag. Got some basic Ryu combos in (jump in hp/hk, c.mk, fireball) and got some people to disconnect by hitting it again and again. Crossed up with j.hp one game. W.T.F. It was like Ryu's ass was a hitbox too. The unfortunate thing is that I could not get rush punch games going online. I'd sometimes get swept out of my followups... which is ridiculous. It's an indication that with low lag, that's a really good setup for 90% of the people online who don't know what they really ought to be walking into.

Sagat is confirmed ghey. Uppercuts are so much damage, regardless of depth when they hit. From fullscreen, you can fire off a few Tiger Shots, and when you predict they want to close in distance, you can walk forward about a fourth of the screen and wait for a jump-in to Tiger Knee x 2 for massive damage. At worst, they try to walk forward, which you can poke back with more fireballs or standing mk. Or they continue to walk themselves into a corner so you can pound them in the ass.

Remember how annoying properly spaced spiral arrows were in CvS2? They're even better in HDR, I think. Short spiral arrows are win. I won some sets with just the short button, going between c.lk, spiral arrows, and cannon spikes.

[buhwhyen]

Random thought I had about Guile cr.short, cr.short super... I'm pretty sure cr.short and st.short weren't cancelable (in ST) so you have to kara cancel to get the super/flash kick to combo. Did they change it? From what I remember cr.short does hella damage, but had a lot of start up for a "light" attack.

[Pikachu]

Yes, you kara the standing short into super for the combo. It's pretty easy with the new motion. Low shorts are fast enough.. they actually didn't link together like this before in classic mode.

[Pikachu]

So... apparently Tiger Knee combos are good, but there's a much better combo for Sagat: j.hk, c.mk, HK Tiger Shot. Why is it better? It dizzies. Forget kara cancel combos.

[Pikachu]

From SRK, posted by Calipower (Valle). It's from a thread about what people say while online playing HD:R.

After a night of Fei Long'ing -

"Nice lag Fei... you're lucky its ONLINE"
(1 Day Later)
"I take that back..... found out who you are =D"

In a room with zoolander -
random spec1: man this fei is good.

zoolander: calipower's best char is sagat. probably has the best sagat/ryu in the U.S.

random spec1: no he doesn't, that one val-e guy..whats his name? alex val-e. I saw him vs Daigo on youtube vids.

zoolander: dood thats him calipower is valle. he's been owning you guys with fei which he probably doesnt even take seriously.

random spec1: What?? no he's not...how do you even know its him??

zoolander: everyone knows its him, he's on my friends list, He has a picture of himself on his avatar. DOOD it says it in his profile!

spec2,3:(mics rumbling)

calipower: (mic off lol'ing)

[Pikachu]

Anyone up for playing some HD:R tonight/tomorrow?

[Pikachu]

Gonna put this up and look back at this in a year or so and laugh, but here's what I predict the tiers will be:

A: Sagat, Balrog (boxer)
B: Guile, Dhalsim, Honda, Akuma
C: Bison (dic), Ken, Ryu, Chun, T.Hawk, Vega (claw), Fei Long, Blanka, Dee Jay
D: Cammy, Zangief

The spacing between the tiers is pretty small, with what I predict will be a barely noticeable difference until you compare B tier to D. The reason I make Cammy and Gief at D is they have some awful matchups.

[Pikachu]

So.. something that's always bothered me in ST is when I get stuffed by random shoto sweeps. Tons of situations where, with any other character, mashing on a low roundhouse would get you killed. Scrubs love to mash on sweep in most fighters, period, but this will get you killed in CvS2, or Guilty Gear. I mean, it's a slow startup move.. after all, it's a crouching heavy attack.

Well, SF2 is the exception, and maybe even the origin of such habits... Shoto sweeps have a mere 4 frame startup. Never knew that.

Oh, and Lariat stuffs hella things because it has no startup.

For reference: nki.combovideos.com/flame.html

[buhwhyen]

I think Balrog (boxer) might drop to B tier. Headbutt really isn't safe at all on block (pretty big nerf, kills a decent number of mix ups) and his throw set up off whiff dash uppercut isn't as tight as it used to be because they messed with throw distances and (seemingly) recovery/block stun on dash uppercut. And it might just be me, but lvl 1/2 TAP really doesn't seem to go as far as it used to.


I also have doubts about Sagat remaining A tier. Yes, he got a lot of big damage combos and a really really stupid dizzy combo off of a non-max range j.rh. But Sagat was A tier (in ST) because he did a lot of damage (mostly via chip damage, but occasionally with uppercuts) while remaining completely safe. He had ways to keep people out (st.lk/st/mk) and was able to continue pressuring with tigers. The thing thats bothering me now is: tigers are not nearly as good to spam because you can hit his arms pretty easily, tigers are slightly slower (~4-6 frames), you can't keep people out and easily transition to tiger shots (2nd hit st.lk -> special cancel is gone, so you have to rely on cr.mk which has worse range/crappier hitbox).

So really what I'm trying to say is the way O.Sagat was played really isn't how HD remix Sagat will be played (almost positive). There will still be the fireball traps because they're still safe at full screen and I think still the best option on knockdown. But now I think a lot of Sagat players will opt to try and land a jump in combo because just about any hit + jump in combo = dizzy. Dizzy = 50% damage combo w/ no meter => ~80% damage from dizzy combo + follow up combo. I know its really early to be saying this, but it really just seems like they took away most of the tools (yes tools) that kept Sagat safe, and in exchange just gave him more damage options. And I don't think hes that much better than the rest of the cast in terms of big damage combos, but the point being I think overall he's gonna have a harder (no homo, even though his name rhymes with faggot) time consistently landing his big damage combos. Though its really just speculation at this point cause Sagat never went for cr.mk -> combo openings before (though the range on cr.mk leaves much to be desired) or any "combo" not involving normal move -> low tiger shot. So I have no idea how difficult openings will be to find/capitalize on. Oh..and just a random note, I think they reduced the chip damage done by tiger shots.


I think E-honda will be A/B tier (sigh). Jab torpedo is like...wrong, it goes way too far, super also destroys fireballs. No more ocho throw loop, but a single ocho throw seems to do a lot more damage than before.


Other random things...
-Honda/Dee Jay's j.rh both crossup. Meaning no more walk under -> free combo if distancing is bad.
-I cannot for the life of me do hundred hand slaps. WTF its supposed to be easier.
-Kara canceling is still a bitch
-I find myself really only using Sagat's super to bust through fireballs or as an anti air (though the damage isn't much better than tiger uppercut)
-Random super ghetto Cammy set up. cannon drill (blocked), super
-Guile's cr.fierce can no longer beat Ryu's hurricane kick clean (it can beat it clean sometimes, but most of the time it ends up trading)



EDIT 12/18:
A big problem for Sagat is how players deal with the range where he used to either throw out st.lk x tigershot, or walk up (slightly) st.lk x tigershot. From what I know, his pokes in general don't seem that great and throwing out close-midrange tiger shots seems like a really bad idea since his arms have such a big hitbox.

Oh. And Honda's headbutt goes over low tiger shots clean (lol), and he can duck high tiger shots (duh).