Dealing with scenarios

[Pikachu]

Figured this might turn into a useful thread. Ultimately, we can all practice combos, memorize moves, but dealing with specific scenarios is pretty key. I guess I'll just throw out what I've been trying to do out in the open and get feedback/get more ideas. Hopefully that materializes into better matchup knowledge.

Not limiting this thread to SSF4, of course.

[Pikachu]

But if there's anything really annoying about the SF4 series, it's the reversals. I don't think anyone likes getting hit with a 720, and whereas Gief was the only one with one in vanilla, now we add E.Honda, T.Hawk, Hakan, and Balrog into the mix.

Ibuki also has a command grab Ultra, which is sorta relevant to this discussion, and Balrog's 720 is more like Ibuki's grab than the others. Abel's Breathless Ultra is just demented and warrants a different method to deal with. End side note.

The way I approach my strategy in dealing with 720's is to first note how 720's hit in the first place. The traditional 720, in most Capcom games, has a startup of 1+0, which means the "ching" happens 1 frame after you input the command, and it takes 0 frames to start the move after the "ching". In other words, if you haven't initiated your jump when the windup animation starts for the Ultra, you're gonna be taken for a ride <insert MvC2 music>.

If we follow this logic, then we certainly don't wanna be put in a position like that. But 720s are a tricky move, because only a handful of people in the world can pull off a standing 720 in any game (and I'm not sure anyone can in the SF4 series). A standing 720, by definition, is one executed from a neutral position. In other words, doing one on wakeup does not count, nor does jumping first, buffering the command in the air, and landing with the 720. But this is good news for us who do not play grapplers regularly.

Here are the different methods of executing 720:

1. The most common, on wakeup.
2. The next most common, buffered while in the air during an empty jump, land, and hit all three punches to execute 720.
3. Mash 720 in the middle of someone's pressure strings.
4. Dash or FADC. Both of these techniques use the dash to make sure you don't jump during the 720 rotation.
5. Tick into 720, which I think I've seen happen like, twice ever (though this is a much bigger deal in ST).
6. Whiff normal to buffer 720 motion without jumping, hit three punches after normal recovers to execute the move. In SF4, you'll see Zangief do this using his standing roundhouse, which is a trick that originates from SF2.

For SF4's sake, however, it's the first 4 that generally apply across the board and matter the most.

Dealing with wakeup 720

Let's say I knock down Zangief with Balrog with an AA headbutt, which does enough damage to activate Zangief's 720 Ultra. If I move in point blank and attempt to pressure with some jabs, there's a high chance I'm getting grabbed for massive damage. That's no good. I also shouldn't even be in that range, because I can't block 720 throws. However, if I move back to about maximum sweep range, I'm out of the reach of Zangief. Yet, if I reach my fist out to tag him with a meaty attack, the wakeup 720 will grab my extended body and I will die. So does this mean I cannot pressure when the Ultra is activated? No. If I want to drop a poke on Zangief to remind him who is on offense, all I have to do is allow him to fully get up (by waiting a split second for him to get back into neutral/crouch position) and then poke him. This way, if he spazzes on wakeup, the Ultra misses, and I can jump in for a full combo. If he does nothing, I can fling a sweep or another attack in a safer manner.

Against high level Shoto play, the pause doesn't work against uppercuts. After all, it's very possible to pull off a DP from a neutral position. But because the same cannot be said about 720's, waiting that extra split second before continuing pressure can diffuse the scariest threat. What would end up happening if someone tried to delay their 720 post-wakeup is that they'd end up jumping into the air. While that might dodge the sweep (you might actually tag them in their jump animation), they're putting themselves in the position to get hit as they come down (Balrog can low Fierce). Now, if they're a scrub, they won't tell the difference, and they'll just whiff the Ultra. You can then kill them for it. If they're better, they'll know they just have to block and cede momentum to you (even if it's a subconscious realization) because they know when they've lost their 720 opening.

I usually like to employ this trick if they've just gotten their Ultra. Why? Because it makes them feel like they may have missed out on an opportunity, even if they never truly had one to land the 720, because I was being safe. Grapplers have this need to use their rotating specials/supers/ultras to keep themselves safe, because the collective consciousness of grappler history in all fighters is that they're abused by rushdown and don't want to be victims to relentless offense. If they feel like they missed one opportunity to punish me for attacking them, then they're primed to really wanna grab me (those fags).

If I land a second knockdown and they're still alive, with a fuller Ultra, I will rush to go over the corpse. This works extremely well with Bison (unless you mistime things, then you just die), since his impulse is to fling kicks while tapping shorts into scissors. Because I also play patiently with Bison against Gief, this sudden, detectable change in intent will make them wanna grab me and potentially take the round. However, I will crouch in front of their corpse and jump straight up or backdash just several frames before they fully wake up. If the bait works, they will wakeup 720, and I will dodge it because I'm in the air (cannot be grabbed). As they recover, it is combo time. I can also facilitate the bait by whiffing a few jabs or one slow normal over them when they're down, but this is riskier because I can mess this up (and I have done so many times).

A variant of this method is to throw a grappler (scary), and jump in early on him. This one is fairly high risk if you want to have the proper effect. If you jump in too early, you may not bait them out. If you jump in too late, they can grab you when you land. You want to deceive them into thinking they can grab you by landing just late enough to make them twitch, but then be fully recovered to jump straight up and dodge the 720. I like using this method because it makes you look really spaztastic for jumping twice in succession, and can either make people underestimate you, or just pissed that they seemingly got nailed by something lucky.

In non-SF4, a simple crossup/jump in will work as well, but Lariat is insane AA, Honda buttdrop can hit you, and T.Hawk's EX uppercut is really good.

If your balls are made of steel, you can also meaty a normal that puts your character in the air, like some of Ibuki's overheads/hop kicks, Vega hop kick, Guile sobat kick, and Viper's overhead elbow. Even though they can't be 720'd, they can be beaten by another invincible wakeup for knockdown, and that's not good.

Other situations, like buffering in the air, hit the grappler air-to-air, or just uppercut. If they're grabbing you in the middle of your strings, make sure your execution is better, and also make sure your blockstring is safe to these grapples. React to whiffed normals with one of your own, backdash, or try to block the normal. As counter-intuitive as it is, a great way to deal with Zangief's whiffed RH into 720 setup is to stand into the roundhouse to block. He cannot grab you afterward because he will be out of range.

Hope this makes sense. This is just how I tend to deal with 720s given what I can think of. If there's more, or other situations to deal with, post!

EDIT - Ibuki's throw Ultra and Balrog's 720's work differently than the 1+0 rule. I dunno their exact startup, but if you are in neutral/crouch when either of them "ching", you can jump on reaction.

[buhwhyen]

Is this supposed to be general like how to deal with 720s, frame traps, flow chart Ken, etc? Or more match up/character specific stuff?

Also...is there anyone not Josh, Jon or me that will read this?

Dudley frame traps

Really one of the few redeeming qualities of Dudley include his frame traps. His play style is now not retarded aggression once he gets a knockdown. Since there's a lot less non-ex invulnerable moves (particularly during start up), you actually need to block, back dash, or FA. Oh. And his walk speed is actually decent.

Some notable frame traps include:
- cr.jabx2, cr.strong, f+fierce
This works exceedingly well if you throw out any normal that doesn't lower your hit box (shoto cr.mk, ibuki sweep, etc). Just block it or back dash.

-string into jab MGB (hit). This leaves Dudley at +2. Commonly people will just cr.mp x jab MGB again and again until you stop getting hit, even then they keep repeating it. You can jump this, but it typically won't allow for a cross up.

-string into jab MGB (blocked). This only leaves Dudley at -2. Meaning that he *can* EX jet upper whatever you try to punish with. Not to say you shouldn't try, but I'd suggest something low hitting and relatively fast. Every normal jet uppercut has -NO- invincibility on start up. The only reason you get hit by one on wake up/cross up is because your meaty was not timed correctly.


Random stuff

-if you're playing a shoto/fireball character and the Dudley tries to dash punch through fireballs, throw jab fireballs. The invincibility on dash punches isn't that good (and there is none on start up). Also try faking because dash punches are really slow to come out, at least 21+5 or 3 (dash straight or dash upper) frames.

-SSB (short swing blow), the move that moves Dudley back and then rushes forward with a punch, is not good in this game. The main difference to note is that this no longer move Dudley farther forward than he starts (unless its EX'd). So if Dudley throws this out a character length away, he'll almost certainly whiff unless you throw something out to get stuffed (this move does not have good priority). If you see it, just mash something, it'll most likely beat it out. Exception includes the EX version which gets 3 hits, but you can still stuff relatively easily. Also all versions have frame disadvantage on block -2/-4/-4/-5.

[Pikachu]

Really, it's for anything random that comes to mind. Maybe we'll clean this up later.

[buhwhyen]

I guess I should expand a little bit further on the last topic I was writing on (after playing some games online). I guess it's something along the lines of thinking about frame (dis)advantage and not getting stuffed all night long (no homo).

Dudley is a good example of messing with your perceptions. A lot of stuff Dudley uses is actually really unsafe, and reliant on your opponent twitching or not being patient enough to keep blocking. Though to anyone who has actually played fighters before, his frame advantage feels really awkward/ambiguous. This is something that I've been abusing a lot, with quite a bit of success.

For example, f+fierce is actually -2 on block. Which I typically follow up with either cr.jab (3 frame start up) or cr.strong (4 frame start up). So the math says that if you throw out anything that has 5 or less frames of start up (assuming you throw it on the first possible frame), you'll most likely stuff my follow up.

Similarly, when I throw out jab jet uppercuts (6 frame start up) after a blocked f+fierce, that's 8 frames to stuff it. Keep in mind jet uppercut has no invincibility on start up (might have 1-2 frames right before it hits, but you can't reversal it to stuff anything unless you use the EX version).

But what is difficult to deal with is your perception of frame disadvantage. Most of the time it doesn't feel/look like you should be able to punish, so you don't go for a punish immediately. In ambiguous situations, people tend to pause then try to throw something out. This is what will lead to a lot of stupid counter hits and getting randomly stuffed (nh).

Honestly, there aren't many (if any) perfect sequences that will completely lock you down for an extended period of time with no real opportunity to get out. At least in SSF4 there isn't. Some situations are pretty difficult to get out of, but by no means are they impervious to a well timed reversal uppercut/EX move/ultra/super.

So...be decisive with your actions. If you don't want to wait out a block string then don't. Make the decision to punish the next time you see <x> block string, or sequence, or whatever. Don't hesitate, don't second guess whether or not he'll block this time or not. Just do it.

As far as what you should throw out. Try thinking about what tools (nh) you have. What is your fastest move (start up wise). What moves have invincibility. Would these moves whiff? Would they cause certain high/low attacks to whiff? Every character has some invincible move(s). It's a matter of figuring out when/where you can use them to stop a block string or break a rush down pattern. Also don't exclude backdashing or jumping, you don't always need to stuff them to get yourself into a more advantageous position (nh).

Noticing patterns
This is something that you really should be trying to do. When I say noticing patterns, it doesn't always apply to something that happens in 5 seconds or less (a block string or sequence of moves). You should really try to find tendencies from the previous rounds too. So does he like to reversal uppercut after you anti air him? Will he jab, jab, tick throw you in <x> situation. Does he walk up to you and throw you almost every time after a hit psycho crusher (hint hint). Does he throw out 1 jab, 2 jabs, 3 jabs, etc when he tries to go for tick throws.

Everyone has different ways they like to set up their damage and or break your momentum. Many people online just mash fierce/EX dp. But in general, a lot of people will throw you if you whiff a jump in, mash out cr.jabs on a mistimed meaty or link. But if I notice <x> person likes to mash (homo), I can space my moves to aim for a CH into some big damage or knockdown combo.

Noticing tendencies and patterns let you do some really ridiculous punishes with little (at least reducing) the risk associated with going for big damage CH combos.

Particularly, I'd advise trying to watch how people tend to act when their life gets low, and/or when they start to fall behind on life (and feel like they need to "catch up").

You'd be amazed how many rounds you'll win by doing nothing, blocking, and or back dashing, rather than trying to throw out an ultra/super/shoryuken/etc.

Oh... about distances too. SSF4 has this interesting feature that pretty much every new character they added has really awkward/non-standard movement of some sort. This is actually one of the bigger reasons why I refuse to play Guile in this game. The fact that Adon can react to a mid screen sonic boom and punish it with his "dive kick," is retarded. There's no good way to stop Ibuki pressure either. I haven't tested it myself, but I'm pretty sure she can SJC her target combo for a mix up even on block. Her target combo mix up on hit is absolutely retarded. It's so safe and mostly un-escapable.

I haven't found a really good way to deal with this yet, I've just been playing generally more defensive or exceedingly aggressive. I don't think middle ground will work too well because there are a lot of really fast moves that can easily catch you off guard and or punish stuff that would "normally" seem really safe to throw out. I think you should just try to throw away some of your normal perceptions. I honestly don't like this idea, but a lot of the new characters I find have a really awkward play style and or move set. And I'm having issues figuring out when it's even safe to throw out fireballs or even walk forward from full screen.

Oh yeah. Target combos = good for every character that has one (that I know of). In a lot of cases you can cancel them into special moves and or jumps (wtf) and they're still mostly safe on block, if not leaving you at neutral (+0), and in few cases leave you at advantage.

EDIT:
When you play a Dudley online and he throws out a jab MGB. He will undoubtably follow it with a cr.mp. If you get hit by the MGB, don't try to punish the follow up, it *should,* if timed correctly, be unbeatable if you don't have an invincible move. (jab MGB is -2 on block, +2 on hit, cr.mp has 4 frames start up). Most Dudley's will repeat this until you stop them. I suggest after the first rep to reversal ultra. After that you should probably try to (or at least consider) punish(ing) with something safer on block.

[Pikachu]

Yeah, Dudley screws with my perceptions. My perception on frame disadvantage is really poor .