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Post by feedback on Aug 13, 2010 20:50:51 GMT -5
Channel Smite is a situational feat that can come in handy if you are in one of the following situations:
a. Fighting a small number of enemies. b. Surrounded by allies you don't want to harm. c. Are a melee cleric with multiple attacks per round.
Generally you would have a combination of C and either A or B for the feat to actually be useful. The standard channel energy ability takes a standard action and does xd6 in a 30 ft burst pattern. The smite ability uses a swift action which can be useful at the mid-levels before you can use your swift actions for quickened spells.
The best use of this I can imagine is a mid-high level melee focused cleric with multiple attacks per round who channels negative energy. This would allow the cleric as a full round action to get all of his attacks and be able to add xd6 to one of his hits. This damage boost is in addition to his normal melee damage and will not harm any allies that are also flanking his target.
I see this feat as less useful for a cleric who channels positive energy as it would only work against the undead and thus is less useful for the majority of PCs. This is a feat you can easily skip but it does have its situational uses.
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Post by Pikachu on Sept 30, 2010 18:05:26 GMT -5
Alright, I finally gave this thing a decent read since it seems like I might play in Chip's game.
I'm pretty impressed with the new features because the classes seem interesting. What was so unfortunate throughout 3.x is that even certain classes/combinations that were good were just so straightforward to play that it was not appealing (I like variety, so long as it doesn't suck ass).
The predictable Josh combination for a gestalt character is wizard/cleric. Not for any particular synergy other than having access to a lot of stuff. These two classes had some of the least drastic changes and there's less of a learning curve to play (for me). I do have to comment that the new method of specialization is very cool, but really does not hurt nearly as bad in a dual-spellcaster situation in gestalt.
Few things that caught my eye:
Inquisitor on its own feels meh, but with gestalt, I think takes on a life of its own. If I were extremely confident that everyone would work in tandem, I'd pick this class in conjunction with some other class that had better BAB. Paladin/Inquisitor seems like a very good "leader" character on and off the battlefield.
Sorc/Oracle seems very neat as well. I normally hate sorcs, but I've been very tempted by the new bloodline powers and spells. They're not good enough to make me very confident in them, but they certainly can't be abysmal in PF. Unless you pick some ass spells. Oracle isn't something I'd play, but this combination focusing on one main stat is kinda nice. I'll let Erica play this and judge the results from there.
Wizard/Witch would be something I'd play if I were certain that there would be recurring characters I would mess with. And maybe if I weren't forced to be good.
If I wasn't certain Craig would do it, I'd consider Ranger/Rogue or Fighter/Rogue. There's enough to do in combat where I wouldn't get bored easily.
The problem I find right now is that the combos I gravitate toward ignore the rest of the party. Thoughts on this? I'd like to try to play in tandem, but I need to know that reciprocation would occur.
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Post by feedback on Sept 30, 2010 20:13:56 GMT -5
Yay more people playing in Chip's game. Since I'm gonna be playing my standard Bard/something the more people that play the more powerful I become. Leaning towards Summoner at the moment for disposable flanking minions/multi-attack eidolon. But Sorc and Fighter secondary are still on the list.
For group synergy purposes the team work feats sound like a good idea, but after taking a closer look at them I'm really not that impressed. The actual effects of the feats aren't too impressive and the feat cost/positioning requirements are rather harsh for the meager payoff. While some of them are probably worth it, I probably won't have the feats to spare with my builds unless I end up going fighter secondary.
While neither Cleric or Wizard have changed much from 3.x, you need to take a look at their spell lists since those got worked over in the pathfinder update. A bunch of spells either got nerfed, buffed, or had a functionality change that you need to be aware of. Examples include Ray of Enfeeblement, Flaming Sphere, and Dispel Magic.
Ray of Enfeeblement now offers a save for half effect, straight nerf from 3.x. Flaming sphere got buffed to 3d6 on a failed reflex save. Dispel magic no longer has a cap on the caster check, but you can only dispel 1 buff per casting (the highest one) and no longer has aoe targeting power.
With a large group like ours, I'm always for having more rogues. Sneak attack got a huge upgrade in pathfinder so it now works on almost everything that isn't one of the following: Incorporeal creatures, oozes, swarms, and elementals (air/earth/fire/water) cannot be sneak attacked [source]. It also appears that swarms can not be sneak attacked.
This means that you can sneak most constructs and more importantly undead. I'll probably be part summoner so you can expect me to provide at least 2 pieces for flanking purposes (myself and a summon).
One combo that you might like is Wizard/Alchemist. I don't need to sell the wizard to you so I'll talk about the Alchemist. He's an int based caster with a reduced spell list. Between the two you would end up with 3/4 bab (d8 hp), full saves, and 4 skill points per level. He gets bombs that are basically superior alchemist fires that improve as he levels.
He can self buff a physical stat at the cost of a mental one. We'll ignore strength since that drains int, but you could buff dex or con at the cost of wis or cha respectively. This buff is an alchemist bonus so it will stack with any enhancement bonus you already have. This buff also grants a small natural armor bonus. Alchemists also learn cure spells and eventually get Heal at lv 16 so you could function as a healer in a pinch.
I agree that the Inquisitor on its own isn't that impressive, but with the gestalt system I believe that it is one of the better secondary choices. 2 good saves, 6 skill points, good class abilities, and a nice selection of divine magic (including the ability to use CLW wands for out of combat healing) makes it a pretty good secondary for a primary fighter class. Reposting a build idea I had from the other forum.
Here is another idea that I was kicking around for a bit before I scrapped it. If anyone wants to poach this build go ahead. I'm not gonna use it:
20 Inquisitor/9 Ranger/4 Fighter/2 Barbarian/5 flex levels
1-2: Barbarian 3-11: Ranger 12-15: Fighter 16-20: Flexible
This build was meant to abuse the Inquisitor's 11th level ability called Stalwart which is basically evasion for Fort/Will saves. The previous build gives full immunity on a successful save at lv 11 if the effect in question offers a save for partial effect.
Barbarian gives better starting HD, fast movement, uncanny dodge, and minor rage abilities. Ranger gives evasion in medium armor, one of their fighting style tracks, and favored enemy which has good synergy with the Inquisitor Bane ability, and minor magic. Fighter gives armor proficiency for full 40' movement in medium armor and more feats.
Inquisitor is the new divine bard class from APG. So less emphasis on knowledge tricks and more on HULK SMASH stuff. At lv 13 this build gets the divine power/righteous might combo with full bab progression. This combo is even better in pathfinder gestalt with the changes to divine power making it a luck bonus instead of altering your bab.
5 levels are left to be filled with whatever. I usually threw in 2 more fighter levels so he could qualify for the disruptive feat for anti-spellcaster purposes and then filled the rest with ranger for full save progression. Alternatively you could find a cool prestige class or anything else something that you could dip for 5 levels.
I'd recommend half-orc or the standard human for the race. Orc Ferocity is too good with classes that can heal themselves, but human is just the golden standard. Nothing wrong with a free feat and skill points. Inquisitor favored class with hp bonuses the entire way. Stat spread is something like the following with the flexible stat boost probably going to strength.
Str: 18 +2 Dex: 14 Con: 18 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 8
End result is a versatile front liner that can ignore any effect that he can make his saving throw for. Full bab progression, medium armor, high hp, good skill points, and enough magic to be dangerous. Makes an excellent tracker and human lie detector.
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Post by dyuman on Oct 1, 2010 10:36:02 GMT -5
I'm finalizing my Monk / Rogue build.
I may have to be less extreme in my min max stats as Int matters for rogues level 20 Master Strike. I'll have to see...
As a back up for if/when this character dies, I'm going to go Summoner / Sorc or cleric
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Post by feedback on Oct 1, 2010 18:02:58 GMT -5
tl;dr Fun ability, probably not worth raising your int for unless you want more skill points.
I wouldn't worry too much about the Master Strike ability. It is a very cool ability, but 1st its a lv 20 ability which means that even when you get it you probably won't have much time to play with it. Maybe a session or two depending on how long the campaign is. 2nd if this is the only reason you want to raise your int, then it won't really come into effect until you hit lv 20 as opposed to your other stats that will serve you through your leveling experience (this assumes that you aren't changing to a more skill orientated build). 3rd the save is Fort based which is usually the best save for most enemies.
4th even if you raise your starting int it won't make a huge difference. Your save is 20 + int mod which for you right now is -2. So you're at a base 18. Add in some magic items and wishes/tomes and you'll end up with another 10 int effectively adding in +5 bringing you up to a 23 save assuming you get maxed items/tomes. Consider that even if you did start with say a 14 int (an 8 point swing for you) you'd bring the save to 27 (assuming the same items).
Compare this to a lv 20's Fort save. We are ignoring any mook enemies since whether or not this ability works on them is for the most part irrelevant. Yes mooks will probably be the fodder to fuel how cool this ability really is, but for now we'll assume that we only care if it works on something you couldn't ordinarily kill with 1 full attack anyways.
Since this is Gestalt we'll assume that anyone important will always have full saves. So we start with a base of 12. Lets be generous with the con score and give him 20 (through starting stat, race, level ups, ect) and +6 for a magic item. We'll toss in a nice cloak of resistance for another +5 and stop there. We'll ignore any other luck/random magic items/bonuses/feats he may have. This gives us 12 + 8 + 5 = 25.
We can probably assume that this number is accurate +/- 3 for most cases. So we can assume most enemies will have between a 22-28 fort save. Most typical monsters also fall into this range. BBEGs will almost always break this rule and probably be able to reach 30+ so we'll ignore those edge cases.
23 vs 25 has roughly a 40% chance of working. d20 roll so each point is roughly a 5% increase/decrease. So worst case scenario of 18 vs 25 is a 15% chance of working or they have to roll a 3 or less to fail. Best case scenario of a 27 vs 25 has a 60% chance of working.
So yes if you want your capstone ability to work reliably on anything that isn't a mook (or botched its saving throw), you'll need to increase your starting int. How important is this? Well that is up to you. While I think that master's touch is a fun ability, it really doesn't change your overall game plan of run up to things and hit them until they are dead. At best it might allow you to use a standard action to kill something as opposed to a full round action, but I don't think that is really that important. The sleep/paralyze part might be useful for taking prisoners, but at this level we have access to dominate spells that basically do the same thing only better.
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Post by feedback on Oct 1, 2010 18:18:13 GMT -5
If anyone is looking to add some synergy to a melee character, look into taking the Shattered Defenses feat line. I'll be able to help spread the shaken condition by lv 8 at the latest (through bardic music), but I'm also looking into taking dazzling display at lower levels. At worse we can just use the intimidate skill by itself and target 1 enemy we want to scare.
Last I remember Neil was planning on playing a half-orc Paladin/Fighter so unless he changes his mind we've got at least 1 front liner so far. No one else had any idea of what they wanted to play last I checked so we've got a lot of unknowns.
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Post by Pikachu on Oct 2, 2010 4:44:04 GMT -5
Just to extend (nh) Jon's post regarding the effectiveness of a capstone ability, because there is a lesson that scrubs NEVER learn contained within it.
Don't just read that post and say, "Alright, I guess I won't use that skill." Pay attention to how he came to that conclusion based on success using a dice roll range. If you can grasp this line of thinking, you will be able to figure out how effective any ability is in D&D. There are tons of effects that sound great on paper, but it is imperative to have a grasp on how to estimate (especially in the heat of battle) your chances of success.
For reference of what kinds of saves you're up against, check out monsters of a CR that at least match your level, or are one higher. Use several to get an idea of what average exists.
You can guarantee I'm going into Wizard + something. I would like to know whether the school specializations apply to spell types cast from another class' list before finalizing the choices, as well as whether we'd even get far enough into the game where I have to make a decision on what stat boosting items I would have to prioritize between classes with differing casting stats. That is an expensive proposition unless we are getting a lot of money.
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Post by feedback on Oct 2, 2010 16:47:02 GMT -5
Last I talked with Chip, he said that he intended to have this be a long term game where we will eventually hit lv 20. So I'd have a general plan for your 2-20 progression. He hasn't really said anything about the availability of high level magic items so we may have to look into taking some crafting feats if we want some specialized gear.
Your wizard specialization should not have an effect on any other spell casting class you take. So spec away.
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Post by dyuman on Oct 4, 2010 0:39:35 GMT -5
Am I not a front liner? Sorta kinda?
I'm gonna stick with my 6 int based on what you have said. I can always use quivering palm for the same effect, or just take the chance on the roll against something that I sneak attack on (which would happen anyways).
Thanks for the metric.
Question - if I stun something, and then delay my next turn do they stay stunned for more time since it says they are stunned until just before my next turn?
So, lets say I move very early on, and stun someone. I then hold my next turn until I go last... does this mean they are stunned while my teammates do stuff? I would guess not, but would be important to know.
Also, do attack of opportunities get the chance to be stunning fists? What about sneak attacks?
If I stun in an attack of opportunity how long does the stun last? Until before my next move still? This goes back to the first part about delaying my turn since attacks of opportunity don't really get me too many total moves of stun time relative to the group.
Damnit, thought I posted this before going out today... apparently I didnt.
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Post by dyuman on Oct 4, 2010 1:14:57 GMT -5
I read an article today saying I should buy wands, even if I can't use them and then hand them to a party wizard and tell him to use it to buff me. Doesn't use his slot/resources, and just need his hand to waive the wand at me.
Is this effective? I know in the past few weeks when I ask about getting buffs from teammates the answer has been "maybe" or "no" as a resource concern.
If I have the wand for the spell and just ask you to wave it at me to get me enlarged for the fight is that acceptable? Are there any RP reasons that this would be refused within the player group?
I'm looking at the following feats so far:
Power Attack Step Up Evasion (free rogue) Scorpion Strike (Hamstring. Standard attack, they can't move more than 5" for wis modifier, and fort save vs my wis score) See it as Synergy with Step Up? May be redundant though.... Could use step up against casters getting away and Scorp Strike against melee trying to run in? Or just make sure I'm always in the person face if next to them.
Forgoeing improved grapple for now. If I want to Greater Grapple someone so I can sneak attack them as they are grappled, but it's a bit gimmicky (and the grapple itself is more relevant). Throw Anything sounds amazingly fun as does Catch off Guard, but seem not optimal. May pick those up for personal joy, but I can see them not scaling well at all throughout the game.
Looking at the Rogue Talents, I'm figuring to go with Bleeding Attack (each dice of damage on sneak attack - 1d6@ level 2, does 1 bleed damage per round). So based on the description, does this mean I can drop down 2 bleeding on them and it grows the longer the fight lasts? Figured it's good as there is no Fort Save or anything, and it's just based off my sneak attacks passively.
My other option was Fast Stealth to move at full speed while stealthed. Could come in hand considering how fast I can move. Probably get both as we level.
Also looking to get Slow Reactions, but after the first two (stops that enemy from making attacks of opportunity for a round... so I suppose if someone is threatened and is fragile, I can go "yea. stop that." with a flank sneak attack, or in desperate measures, a stunning attack flurry sneak attack.
Most of the others seem eh, although I can get combat feats as well instead.
Thoughts?
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Post by Pikachu on Oct 4, 2010 12:55:36 GMT -5
Gonna tackle both of Dyuman's posts:
If something says they are stunned for one round, or any number of rounds, they are stunned until the next initiative count that the stun first occurred. Let's say I stun something for two rounds (because I need two rounds to stun something and then delay my action), and my initiative count is 20. I delay my action until 10 initiative in the subsequent round. The target of my stun is not stunned until my next action. Rather, they will be stunned until 20 initiative, which means they will move before I do, because after the delay, I act on 10 initiative.
You can stun someone in an attack of opportunity (AoO). It's an attack. The stun has its own duration based on initiative count. By the way, AoO's come about rarely as an unforced occurrence. The threat of AoO's tend to be enough to stifle certain decisions during combat, with the payoff of an AoO existing to enforce risks taken.
Easy way to remember things: effects keep their own time. It makes no sense that they are extended just because you decide to idle, regardless of delaying or giving up an action altogether.
Front-line and back-line have no meaning in D&D as it does in Guild Wars. Delicate casters tend to stay away from melee, of course, but there is no aggro because there is a person making decisions on behalf of the monsters. It does mean that a melee character can make a beeline for certain targets, but there is a drawback on being away from the rest of the group. It's more useful to think of distance relative between targets as a measure of safety and positioning, but absolute labels like front-line and back-line are more useful in MMO's and less so in this game.
As a Monk/Rogue, you need to be within reach to be effective, so in that sense, you are going to be in the thick of combat. The difference between this and calling it a front-line position is that you're not there to soak up damage and/or aggro. You won't be quite as durable as a Fighter, but you're not fragile either. If you're worried about getting hit, start to look at ways you can prevent those hits (which sometimes has as much to do with character design as it does the actions you take). You can start off by having high Dex/Wis, which you've done and is something you can control by virtue of design. Recognizing that you aren't wearing armor, you can also save up to buy items that give deflection bonuses to your AC. As for actions, you can fight defensively to further boost your AC, and then switch off that mode when you're going in for a kill (which is a part of your decision making).
Having a wand as your own resource is fine. Questions regarding "RP reasons" for how someone would react is something you can answer using some context. If you're a chaotic evil party, you may not be able to count on steady help from your "friends". If you're in a generally good group, then it's a decent bet.
Or the person activating your wand on your behalf is a snob and will give you hell for it while still providing the service. You may also have to negotiate a fee. Who knows? The reasons are as many as could exist in real life. What I'd ask you, however, as a DM, is why you're carrying a wand (which is pricey enough that you don't buy one for no reason) if you don't know anyone that would help you use it.
Lastly, make sure it is something you can cast ahead of time with a useful duration. I really don't think I need to spell this out (no pun intended), but there isn't going to be anyone who will be happy to do this at the start of every combat. This has nothing to do with ethics/alignment/whatever, and more to do with efficiency during a threatening situation.
Regarding taking stuff for personal joy - do it if you're going to use it almost all the time even if it sucks. Do that at the very least, or you'll end up with wasted feat slots that may as well not have existed at all. I do not care what kind of player anyone claims to be, but self-preservation kicks in quite often even if someone plays a crappy character. When that happens, the sub-optimal stuff rarely comes into play. And then where's the personal joy if you never use what you take?
I'd advise you not to use Slow Reactions reactively. If someone is within range to get threatened with AoO (like casting), they can and should just move away. There's no need to potentially run across the battlefield (and maybe incurring AoO's yourself) to score one hit when there's already an alternative to deal with the problem.
On the other hand, if there's a situation where you want to proactively deny AoO's, Slow Reactions would be neat. Let's say the entire party is taking on something with 15 ft reach. You can go first, taking on the AoO (since you move through threatened squares before getting into range), and then deprive further AoO's while everyone else moves in. Or, there could be a good reason for someone needing to be in a certain position before casting a spell, and that position is threatened.
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Post by feedback on Oct 4, 2010 20:13:13 GMT -5
Building on Josh's response. Yes to a degree you are a front liner, but you aren't built for the same role as a traditional fighter. You have superior mobility through monk, and impressive damage from rogue. There is no reason to limit yourself to the play style of a generic fighter when you have better options available to you than I walk up and hit it until it dies.
Yes this is probably what you will be doing, but since you are part rogue you will be a lot more dependent on positioning than a fighter would because you want flanking. Yes you can use stunning fist every now and then as a substitute, but your target still has to fail a fort save for this to work and stunning fist is a limited resource. On the whole you will be relying on flanking to get the most out of your sneak attack and to help provide an attack bonus for another friendly melee.
Since you are not a full bab character you really want to get into a good position so you can execute full attacks and take full advantage of flurry of blows. This might mean delaying or not charging in first. Or if you do charge in you, with your superior movement, will want to circle around the back so it is easier for your slower fighter types to walk up and help provide flanking.
Gestalt system dictates that most characters will have at least d8 hp unless they choose a full arcane caster build and most front-liners will have d10+. This means that you are at a slight hp disadvantage compared to typical fighters which is another reason why you don't want to be a typical 'front-liner'. You really want to be the skirmisher who moves around combat taking advantage of every opportunity without getting his ass kicked in the process.
Spending your own money on wands for buffs/heals is all fine and good, but like Josh mentioned make sure your buffs are long duration. Most combats don't have a lot of prep time for people to cast buffs and as soon as initiative is rolled people aren't going to want to waste time buffing you with your wand unless they don't have a superior option. Given the gestalt nature of the game people are going to have a lot of options available to them so odds are buffing will take a secondary role unless it is something like haste that can be shared amongst the melee and is a top tier buff.
Even then consider that in game relations will really dictate how this will play out. I wouldn't depend on it in the beginning but as the game progresses you should be able to judge if someone would be willing to help you out or not. As far as effectiveness goes, yes this is a very effective strategy and one we will probably be doing as the game progresses and we gain more resources. Keep in mind that the caster level of the wand is generally capped at the minimum caster level so duration may become a problem with certain spells. Also consider that while you might have bought the wand for use on yourself, it might not always be used to buff you first or at all.
Regarding rogue talents, keep in mind that you can only apply 1 sneak attack talent at a time. Eventually when you hit lv 10+ you will probably want to grab Crippling Strike so I wouldn't put too much faith in the lesser sneak attack talents. Slow reactions is cute, but honestly how many enemies actually have combat reflexes? You can just trigger the aoo then have everyone else act with impunity.
I would consider Combat Trick, Fast Stealth, Resiliency, Trap Spotter, and Weapon Training your best choices. Out of those 5 I would highly recommend Resiliency if you think that you will be charging into melee before the rest of the front-line is there to help soak up damage. It's not a lot of hp, but it helps make sure that you don't die. Consider it an emergency +1 con mod for those omg situations.
Bleeding Attack is fine, but I find it inferior to the above options. Also considering the group size bleed probably won't be that good. Bleed requires a high hp target to be effective. Consider that if you kill a target with 2 full attacks, the bleed was probably worthless. Or if you get the bleed off and an ally kills it before the end of the round the bleed was still useless. Unless you're bleeding an ability score I don't find it to be that good.
For your proposed feat choices. Power Attack is good, Step Up is so so, and ignore Scorpion Strike. Damage is always good and Power Attack is a standard melee damage feat. Step Up is only good if you are trying to harass casters. It is situationally useful and really depends on how you envision your character acting in combat. I see no point in Scorpion Strike. You reduce his movement but he can still attack, cast, and take full round actions. Trip and grapple accomplish the same thing but give greater returns, either he wastes actions to get up or can't do shit until he breaks the grapple.
The improvised weapon feats are fun yes, but realistically when or why would you bother when your fist does more damage and has a better attack roll (you did take weapon training right)? If you want to take them fine, but they were really meant for someone who didn't already have an uber unarmed attack. As for Throw Anything, shurikens are better because you can flurry with them and they don't cost a feat.
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Post by dyuman on Oct 4, 2010 22:54:37 GMT -5
Scorpion Strike is because of the chain to Medusa Wrath, and it's on the list of monk bonus feats (I have to choose off the list).
So does this mean that if I delay to go last, and stunning fist, the counter for it keeps going so I can go first on the next round and get a full flurry on the stunned guy?
I see the point on Bleeding, and will skip it. I'll probably get fast stealth first since it is useful
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Post by feedback on Oct 4, 2010 23:06:11 GMT -5
You don't need to meet pre-reqs to qualify for monk bonus feats. That is partly why the monk bonus feat list is so good. So you can just skip scorpion strike and get medusa wrath at lv 10. Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrow, Dodge, and Improved Grapple are all good choices for your early bonus feat.
No. If you delay your initiative your delayed init becomes your new init for the rest of the combat. ie if you had a 20 initiative at the beginning, delay to 10 and then stunning fist someone. For the rest of the combat you will act on 10, not 20.
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Post by dyuman on Oct 5, 2010 22:48:58 GMT -5
Ah, so not like hero sys where you can delay just for that single round? That is important to know... I'm guessing I can't stock pile unused bonus feats and burn them all at the end right?
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