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Post by Pikachu on Jan 10, 2008 21:52:35 GMT -5
BDC is input like this: 44741236 p/k for mappas. Not nearly as monstrous as it used to be because of the decreased invul, but any boon to mappas in Accent Core is huge. It's also harder to do this nowadays. The idea behind it is to cancel the dash into a jump, which inherits the invulnerability. Then you cancel the jump with a special, which still inherits the remainder invul. People used to also BDC air throw as anti-air.
Bravo on the Slayer stuff, there are so many ghetto tricks to remember.
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 11, 2008 19:17:14 GMT -5
JAM
Probably the top tier character we have the least real insight on, I'll try to post a few things and see if we can collectively fill the gaps.
Normals
1. 6P. Hers is good too, and works for anti-air. Shorter range than most of the other good ones, thankfully.
2. 5S. Also a farther reaching anti-air/poke option. One of her farthest reaching pokes, in fact, and has a lot of active frames. In a pressure string, it's a good excuse for her to cancel into her insane IAD for more pressure.
3. 5HS. Though the end of this normal seems laggy, be careful about trying to "punish" it, because it has a vaccuum effect as well as the ability to continue the gatling chain. I'm mentioning this right here so any of us who aren't experience in fighting Jam won't block this and think it's the end of all her pressure.
4. j.HS. Jam's air moves on the whole are pretty good, but she can dominate the air nicely with this, and maybe along with j.S. If you ever try to go after Jam in the air, stick something out with a lot of active frames nice and early.
Gameplan
Jam wants to stick you to the wall and rape you for all your life. Her openings are not obvious at first, but when you have watched and played enough Jam, you'll see that there are a ton of them.
Jam has no real way to start a wall stick combo off of a ground chain, however, so she'll usually just go for a knockdown if she's getting a hit there. What this nets her is a chance for lots of future damage when she charges up. The most common charge for Jam is the charge for her 236K move... what this does not is make her flying Liu Kang kick really lethal, since if it hits even randomly, she can cancel into another, which will carry you to the wall, stick you there, and start the combo.
Her FB is another spaz move that can net her the wall stick and lots of damage. She can't ground combo into it, but if you're in the air, she can anti-air you, chain the anti-air hit into 2HS, and then cancel into the FB, which you can't tech out of. Therefore, it's not necessary for Jam to always rush down, but it's a viable option to just create a little room for the opponent to see if he twitches with an air dash, anti-air that, and go for the combo.
FRC throw in the corner is a good opening. The prorate doesn't matter... wall stick combos just do that much. Jam has to be really close for the tick throw due to her stubby limbs.
Lastly, IAD 214K (Overhead kick) is another opener for her combo.
For all the openers, Jam needs to dodge zoning pokes, or she can't start the damage up. Also, she needs her opponent juggled up first before the combo can start. This is the trouble with Jam, and what stops her from being closer to S-tier is the fact that unlike other combo whores like Testament, she has to take more effort in the setup of her real damage.
How to beat scrub Jam
I wish I had solid answers for this, but I don't. I have to really reach deep into the abmiguous depths of theory. Well, the concrete info I can give out is to not run into random Liu Kang kicks and FB puffballs. American Jams are definitely more apt to do these, and at least keeping yourself safe from them is a sure-fire plan to not losing.
Also, if you knock her ass down, remember that she can wakeup with her upkicks. This may be cancelled into her 236K when powered up, so it makes it an appealing option for a Jam player to just go for the wakeup uppercut, so to speak. If you are playing against Jam who is powered up once, but knock her down, run up, and FD right outside of throw range just as she wakes up. If you can bait the upkicks, you can punish. Remember, the American mentality means taking the shortest, obvious path to more damage and combos!
If you ever need to burst the wall stick combo, burst it after the first hit of the 6HS rep. Don't do it when you're high off the ground and sticking to the wall. You might burst for no reason when the opponent drops the combo.
That's all I have off the top of my head. Will Edit if I think of more.
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Post by buhwhyen on Jan 11, 2008 21:39:59 GMT -5
***Potemkin***
***Head Slide*** I figure we should start off with important stuff. You should all more or less understand HOW this move works, but just to overview. HSL (head slide, not a real abbreviation, but I'm lazy) grants a long knockdown if it hits from which Potemkin can OTG you for damage. You can avoid this a number of ways: 1) Jump - Duh. 2) Backdash - Works, but difficult to time situationally. 3) Slash Back - I don't advise unless you're good at SB (slash back). 4) If Potemkin hits you with the HSL animation - This one takes some explaination. Potemkin has a hit box as hes doing HSL, if you're close enough that his hit box touches you, you won't be knocked down if blocking.
You typically don't have to fear HSL if you're within 2 or so body lengths of Potemkin, though its pretty common to do 5K, 5S, HSL at that range, so be on the lookout. Most of the time, however, HSL will come "randomly." There won't be any moves done before HSL, most of the set ups for HSL are when you would be in "recovery" after landing from a jump for instance, or something along those lines. You should be aware of when YOU have places where you would be unable to jump out of a HSL attempt because those are the places where you'll generally find yourself getting hit by "random" HSL.
Common set ups: 1) 6HS (double fist of anal annihilation), HSL - Pretty huge block stun, but its still possible to jump before the HSL hits. 2) 5K, 5S, (5HS), HSL - Pretty basic, though most people probably won't do this one. 3) (you) IAD backwards - After escaping pressure or just jumping around, expect decent Potemkin players to time HSL on your landing. Make sure you keep your double jumps available on regular jumps and try not to be too predictable with IADs.
Eventually you'll get hit by a HSL, in which case don't freeze up. This happens way more than it should and it often leads to you eating more damage than you should. In the case of getting hit by a HSL while at full screen distance from your opponent, take it easy. Most Potemkin players have a hard time going full screen unless they're charging is hella good. Be on the lookout for HSL on wake up in order for them to actually get to you and start the OTG loop. You should be looking for how far Potemkin is from you as hes approaching. If he breaks his HF while more than 2-3 body lengths from you and doesn't do another HF immediately, IMMEDIATELY, then 95% of the time he can't OTG you. Learn the distancing for his 5K/2K, both are used to OTG from a distance, knowing how far they reach helps determine when you need to really think about getting out of the loop. In some cases, 2D (his sweep) can be RC'd and used to OTG from pretty much 2/3 screen. Its unavoidable and really most people don't do it cause its more difficult than you'd think to time.
***Wake Up Game*** Potemkin is one of few characters in the game that can actually net good damage from his high/low game. Meaning, outside of HSL and random PB (potemkin buster) set ups, he'll probably go for high/low mix ups. Options include: 1) 5K, 2S, 2HS, HK (heat knuckle) - the basic low string, leads to knockdown. 2) 6K, 6HS, HK - the basic overhead string, leads to knockdown. Lesser known fact about his 6K, its range is pretty decent, but you'll rarely see it if you're more than a character length away from Potemkin. Why? because the only things that can follow 6K are specials and 2HS. 2HS has horrific range, anything more than about 1 character length and it'll whiff (bad) and generally you're too close for a HSL after it and most people don't do a lot of HFs (hammerfall) anymore. 3) 5P, PB - basic tick throw set up 4) 5K/5c.S, PB - the newer variation to #3 5) reflector overdrive (meaty), HSL - previously unescapable HSL set up. But you can SB (slash back) the reflector, or throw out a super of your own to go through it, or uppercut it and in some cases you can back dash it (character depending too).
Note: #1 and #2 can replace heat knuckle with HPB (heavenly potemkin buster) tension depending for bigger damage.
What this means is you just have to guess right. Theres no real good advice to give other than look at the distancing, if you have actual space when you're waking up, its almost certainly #1 or some block string into HSL. Otherwise you just have to keep trying till you guess right. The best advice I can really give is to really just watch out if you do block correctly. Most of the time a HSL will follow a blocked string and once you're past about 1/4 to 1/3 screen HK isn't a threat while jumping/IAD'ing back.
***Tick Throws*** Not as bad as it used to be, but there still are some common tick throw set ups. 1) 5P - The basic option. 2) 5K/5c.S - pretty basic also 3) j.d - This is an old one that still works 4) j.k - You don't see most players using j.k in general, but its relatively even on block 5) megafist (jumping forward or backwards double fist with retarded vocal) - Another old tick, but still works 6) 2S (blocked or hit), HF, HFB (hammerfall break) - More old tricks, but new and improved since 2S now vacuums making this even easier than before. 7) 6K - Yep..he can tick into PB from his overhead. He can combo it too, but more often this happens when 2HS doesn't come out and the player actually is able to react. 8) backdash - Old shit again, predictable attacks/jump ins/etc can be back dashed and thrown.
***Heavenly Potemkin Buster*** Short blurb about this overdrive, it has minimal invincibility on start up, however doesn't have any after Potemkin has left the ground. What this means is you can actually stuff HPB if you have a hit box out. Choose a move that has reasonable priority and the hit box NEEDS to come out before Potemkin gets near you otherwise you risk having your limb grabbed. Randomly you'll see some people (mostly scrubs) use this move from full screen or while in the corner. In this case, j.d (butt drop) is almost guaranteed to follow. As you should all know butt drop has quite a lot of priority and clashes with more than it should. So when you know its coming back dash or run out of its path and wait for Potemkin to land to punish. The move doesn't have a lot of recovery but its enough to punish if you set one up.
***Notes About General Game Play*** Most of the time midscreen you should be watching out for HSL. Often they come out randomly or after a longer poke (mostly S/HS). Don't give Potemkin FREE damage by getting hit by HSL for no reason. Also be wary when running in at Potemkin, HSL has some decent upper body invincibility and can actually avoid some attacks. The easy way to lose to Potemkin is being predictable. This means you always resort to IAD to get in, or always run in, or will predictably use projectiles at certain points. Potemkin can be locked down if you keep him guessing. And once you have him pressured there isn't much he can do about it. His only real options is PB or back dash PB in most cases. Both of which can be avoided by smart use of frame advantage and positioning. You don't want to run in extra deep against Potemkin most of the time, the same with jumping in. Its an invitation to backdash PB. What you want to do is mix up the distances where you throw your first attack. And vary the number of attacks you throw, for example I'm playing Sol. I run at Potemkin the first time and hit 5S at max range then combo into gun flame and FRC to run further in. The next time I run at Potemkin I can generally run in further than max range easily because he has already seen my throw out a max range 5S. So I can either take a chance and try to run in deep, or play it safe and try a mid range poke. Etc. The less he can predict what you'll do next, the less leeway he has to really punish you.
Though, most of the time you should be playing safely opposed to risky. Potemkin can take way more damage than you can and even though he combos hella easy, its really not worth going for broke and going for openings that leave you at risk. Trading with Potemkin generally leaves you dead, with few exceptions. There will be points, if you wait for them, where you freeze the Potemkin player and you can do stupid shit like from full screen run in wild throw, but if you try for it too much you'll probably eat a 5HS/HSL/backdash PB.
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Post by buhwhyen on Jan 11, 2008 23:04:49 GMT -5
EDIT: Well fuck, with all the writing I'm doing, you'd think I'm an English major or something. These things are like fucking essays.
EDIT2: Added more stuff to Slayer section
***Order Sol*** I guess its time to give away my ghetto tricks. Actually you all might get hit by more of them since you know they exist now =).
***Normals*** I normally don't give a shit about explaining normals, but Order Sol has a few you should know about.
1) 5K - 3 frame move. I REPEAT 3 frame move. VERY important to know. This move will probably stuff most things you throw out trying to counter it. The only downside to it is it prorates pretty bad and is stubby as hell. 2) 5S/2S - 90% of the time you see these moves, its probably out there to bait a CH. On CH, both combo into 6HS, which makes you hurt a lot. 6HS itself must be RC'd to guarantee damage after it because you can mash out of the stagger. However, if you don't bother mashing, or don't mash fast enough, fafnir can combo (3 hit combo total) for stupid damage. 3) 6HS - Mentioned above, but only really useful after a CH 2S/5S. Mash out of the stagger for gods sake and if you see a Order Sol running at you (not after a RC) watch out for run up throw. 4) 2D - His sweep. This move is scary. It lowers OS's (Order Sol, getting tired of typing it out) hitbox considerably, enough to go under most projectiles and high hitting moves. Also extends his hit box pretty far out. On CH, sweep can be CC'd (charge canceled) and leads to a free air combo. On lighter characters, point blank sweeps can be CC'd into free combos, but the timing is pretty tight. Some people love running up and CC'ing their sweep on wake up in order to bait a CH and free combo. 5) 5HS - His only real anti air. Its slow as fuck coming out, but once its out its bitchin difficult to beat. The ONLY NORMAL (non CH) that will make specials combo. If any variation of slash is used, specials don't combo (except on CH). Can be CC'd. 6) 2HS - Recently I learned this move does actually have some throw invulnerability. Hits overhead, can be gattled into, and has limited lower body invincibility. On all hits not meaty, must be RC'd to combo, if done meaty linking 5K is possible. 7) 6K - This move has full throw invulnerability for almost its entire duration. It has limited gattle possibilities, but the good ones are fortunately among the few (6HS and 2D). Staggers on CH, so CC'ing this move can lead to potentially nasty fafnir combos on CH. 8) j.hs - This move has stupid priority. On CH it ground slides for free combos and CHs can be baited with the use of whiffed j.p before j.hs.
***Specials*** OS has an additional meter on top of his tension gauge for his specials, which determine the strength of the specials (overdrives are included as specials in this case, read: overdrives have different levels of power too). There are 3 levels for special moves, with each subsequent level, the move generally gains another hit. Lets take for example his uppercut. Level 1 is just a regular uppercut. Level 2 the uppercut gains extra hits and therefore damage. Level 3 retains the upgrade from level 2 and adds in addition a down kick at the "end" of the uppercut which ground bounces for a follow up combo.
The special meter is used up when higher level specials moves are used. The meter drains slowly after a move is used, however, if another special move is used before the meter decays to the previous level, OS still can use a higher level special move. So..for example, I have full meter, level 3. I uppercut and it connects, the special meter starts draining. If immediately I did another uppercut, I could get a level 3 uppercut, even though my meter will drain back down to level 2. This allows OS to do some pretty big combos depending on his meter level. There is also a way for OS to do level 1 specials regadless of his special meter level. By hitting dust at the same time as the button to throw the move out, 623 HS+D for uppercut, the level 1 move will come out and the special meter will not be affected.
There are 2 ways to get special meter. Use the charge special (he powers up like in DBZ and spits flames out of his anus) or he can AC (action charge) his special moves. During or after a special move OS has a window to input a dust command to perform an AC. If he does, he pauses at the end of the special move and a white dot appears on him accompanied by a ching sound and he charges. During the duration of the action charge OS is put in a CH state until out of recovery. On his charge special, he has a charge burst option, which is basically he gains fuck tons of invincibility and creates a circular hitbox around him which does minimal damage but does knockdown.
As stated before, his overdrives are also affected by his special meter. I'll explain the changes at each level. Tyrant Rave: -Level 1. Basically the second hit of regular Sol's tyrant rave, but has way more invincibility. -Level 2. Same as Level 1, but has a second hit to it. You CAN poke him out of the second hit after you block the first, but I would advise against it most of the time. Also note that this is the level of super that makes you floaty, meaning its possible for OS to follow up the super WITHOUT RC in the corner and sometimes (character depending) midscreen. -Level 3. Same as Level 2, but has a third hit. Similarly you can poke him out, but its not always safe (see Ogawa eating hella third hits for no reason). With RC, you can follow this up with a combo.
Savage Fang: (Josh calls it sausage fang) Level 1. Comes out in 1 frame, but has no invincibility. If you have a hitbox out where OS sticks his slab of metal (sword) into the ground, you will stuff this super (same for all 3 levels). Level 2. This move does more damage and at this level comes out in zero frames. ZERO FRAMES. If you're not blocking or don't have a hit box out to stuff OS, you get hit. END. Level 3. The move goes back to being 1 frame start up. Damage increases and you get a different animation on start up.
Most level 3 special moves are combo tastic, be sure to keep tabs on OS's special meter. Most players will revolve much of their game around having level 3 special meter because it becomes easy to land combos anywhere on the screen. A general rule of thumb is level 1 specials have 1 hit to block, level 2 specials 2 hits, level 3 specials 3 hits. If you see him ram his sword hilt at you with level 3 meter, remember this means he has 37 or so frames of advantage, 46 or so if he FRC's the AC (action charge). Act accordingly. (Level 1 has about 7 frames of advantage)
His gun flame (actually gun blaze) deserves its own little section because its so scrubby good. I abuse this move a lot because its good. It lowers his hit box to go under most projectiles and moves in general. This move is the only special OS has 2 FRC points; one on the action charge, and one before at the end of the move before AC would come out. Level 1 normally has around +9 on block and up to 37 or so if you FRC (the non AC point). Stupid? Oh yeah. Needless to say, level 2 and 3 have more advantage than level 1. This move is generally used in wake up mix ups. Normally OS lands a knockdown and gattles into gun blaze which misses. From here he can either do another gun blaze or 5D. 5D is occassionally replaced by 2HS. If you see OS running at you from full screen, sometimes you will see him run through you and scream gun blaze. At which point you can actually throw him out of it, or block the other direction. Don't get too accustomed to throwing him out because it can be mixed with 2HS and 6K, both of which are throw invulnerable.
***Wake Up Game*** Quite a few options here, be particularly wary of tick throws in the corner because of the wall stick damage that comes from corner throws (discussed later). 1) 2K, 5S, 2S, 2D - standard low mix up, doesn't do a lot of damage but lets OS build up his special meter. At the end he can either charge, or throw in other special moves. Air throw set ups off some of the special moves. 2) 2HS, 5k (link or RC on the 2HS), 5S, 2S, 2D - high variation of the above. Not much damage for a lot of tension if RC'd. 3) 5D - other high mix up which does much better damage. 4) 2K, 2HS, RC, run, 5K, 5S, 2S, 2D - variation where the first hit can change, 2HS can be gattled into so it can come at any time. 5) 5K, 5D - Classic Ky mix up that works absurdly well with OS 6) 5K/2P/5P/5S...etc, throw - The number of moves that you can use to tick is stupid because of charge canceling. There is a small animation and I think a vocal to CC, but its difficult to react to. Charge canceling puts almost all of his normals at either slight frame advantage or even frame advantage, which is ideal for tick throws. 7) Gun blaze - crosses up and launches for combos on hit, otherwise leaves him at good frame advantage. 8) j.s, land, #1 (or shorter version) - This is the set up for JC tricks with OS, ambiguous on block, though at slight advantage. 9) j.s, JC, j.hs, j.d - Mix up to #8, does good damage and knocksdown. In the corner can follow up with a combo. 10) j.s, land, throw - Particularly used in the corner for wallstick combos.
A lot of American players over emphasize the high/low game with OS. They tend to do 2HS a lot more than they should and burn 50% tension on the RC combo. Honestly, I would be happy to eat one of those combos because not only did it only do 80 damage for 50% tension, but the odds of getting hit by fafnir/savage fang/tyrant rave went down by hella which is what you should be fearing in general. His high/low game really doesn't net him any good damage so don't fret if he starts it up because he has to land at least 5 combos to kill you if you're close to full on health. You should be looking for gun blaze cross ups, dusts, and in the corner, tick throws. I doubt most American OS players will do #8-10 much if at all.
***Corner Throw*** OS's throw wall sticks in the corner. This leads to some reasonable damage, most of the time. The deal with the wall stick is that on most characters the combo isn't as easy as you all think. Some characters (heavy characters and odd shaped) can't be combo'd normally with j.hs right off the bat. So you either add a 5S, or start with j.k. In the case of 5S, the timing goes from a 5-6 frame window to a 2 or so frame window to combo. This means if your character is heavy and you see him do a 5S after a wallstick throw, look to tech (forward tech). A lot of times you'll avoid 100-150 damage for mashing.
***Fafnir*** Yes, it most certainly deserves its own section. This FB is good. Seemingly hits low from mid-max range and hits mid close in-mid range. Has quite a bit of lower body invincibility and cannot be combo'ed into normally. Comes out hella fast, as you all know, and on CH launches high for a free combo. On regular hit, its possible to combo, but much harder. Typical place you'll see this is at the end of block strings that leave OS at ambiguous frame advantage. American players actually almost never use this move (I'm not American, apparently). They either forget about it or think it sucks (I really hope not the latter). -6 on block btw.
Fafnir tricks: 1) random block string, pause, fafnir 2) random block string, pause, fafnir, fafnir 3) Full screen run, run break, fafnir 4) Charge special, fafnir (fafnir can be done straight from the charge move itself, similarly to how Johnny can Jack hound out of mist finer pose) 5) Random whiffed 5P or something else fast, fafnir 6) Back dash, fafnir 7) IAD, back dash, fafnir 8) block string, run, fafnir 9) block string, back dash, fafnir 10) gun blaze, pause, fafnir 11) 6HS, fafnir 12) blocked Rock it (rocket punch, get it? get it??) , fafnir etc....
***General Game Plan*** OS is one of those characters that has a lot of options once he starts his pressure, but almost no good way to get in. Zoning OS can be really easy most of the time, and generally is the best approach. The more you force him to be creative getting in, the better change he'll either get greedy trying to take advantage of an opening that isn't there, or he'll do something dumb out of frustration. Both good. You have to play cautiously once he gets 25% tension because of fafnir, but as mentioned before most American players foolishly don't use it much. Watch out for running retards from full screen with 50%+ tension and level 2 special meter. Its almost a certain run up savage fang attempt. Actually..when OS is running from full screen in general, poking at him isn't the best of ideas. He can do 1 of 3 things: 1) savage fang 2) fafnir 3) tyrant rave
The problem with this mix up of moves is the 3rd has a metric fuckton of invincibilty and reaches pretty far. So if you poke once he gets in range, you could end up eating a lot of damage, or if you twitch late you end up eating even more damage. So just be careful about sticking limbs out. OS's uppercut is also quite good, the AC can be FRC'd to alter the timing of his landing, like regular Sol uses his follow up kick, though the difference being FRC'ing means he can block and or throw out another uppercut.
Also, learn the distance of his air dash; its probably how he'll approach you most of the time because j.hs is so good. OS's run is also hella fast and in conjuction with a 3 frame 5K means you shouldn't be sticking out limbs late if you don't react quickly, just block.
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Post by buhwhyen on Jan 12, 2008 14:17:37 GMT -5
EDIT: 1/12/08 Added more stuff under the "random notes" section, mostly about random things to look for to get in.
This isn't complete by any means, but theres a lot of information to absorb regarding Testament's mix ups and trap set ups, so I'm posting this even though its incomplete. I'll edit/finish it soon hopefully.
EDIT: I'm also writing these in note pad, and sometimes the formatting gets hella fucked up. So let me know if I miss some random indenting or something.
***Testament*** The real key to this match ups is patience. Really insightful, I know, but its the truth. With the advent of forward barney, its a real bitch to really just run through his tree/net set ups and punch him in the face because trading with barney will rarely end up in your favor (barney will generally hit CH if you trade, ie you get up slower than he does). This match up can be seriously mentally taxing depending on the person's play style, though overall, if you can keep track of where he places his trees and webs its very manageable.
***General stuff*** Some things to be looking for: 1) Identify their play style 2) Look for tendencies on mix ups 3) Look for what they end block strings with 4) What do they do when they're half screen/full screen
1) Theres 2 generic play styles for the majority of Testament players, turtling behind a tree/web set up and rush relying mostly on high/low after knockdown. This match up actually becomes a lot easier if you can notice some details about the person's play style. How easily you can pressure Testament depends on how many openings he gives you. By giving you openings I mean how often he ends his block strings with something that doesn't leave him at frame advantage i.e. forward barney. With turtling Testaments you really have wait patiently and try to just disarm traps until you either force him to temporarily stop putting down traps and do something else or you catch him trying to lay down a tree or web that isn't safe. On the other hand, against a Testament that likes to rush and mix up, you have to really just block until he pushes himself out. Once you block his mix up and get pushed out, he'll either end a block string with: a) forward barney --the safest option leaving him at frame advantage and lets him retain some control b) back barney --the greediest option, potentially opens up more mix ups c) tree/web --the second safest option, difficult to punish on reaction (discussed in further detail later) d) run at you --this is a sign of a stupid Testament. If he constantly runs at you with no traps out/frame advantage from FRC barney, hes probably stupid.
2) This actually applies to more than just Testament and isn't a 100% good idea, but can come in handy. A lot of players have tendencies to start their mix ups with either a high or low move. Examples can been seen in Josh's Eddie, and my Testament. For a while when Josh first picked up Eddie, he would, 90% of the time, start with 5K on his little Eddie pressure. Similarly with my Testament, most of the time I used to start with 2K on the majority of my pressure. Though you should read the situation, rather than depending on a player's tendencies, but realizing their tendencies is a good thing to try and take note of. In clutch situations most players resort to what they're comfortable with. Testament is capable of a LOT of mix ups to his standard high/low/throw game. You won't be able to block it all on reaction, this really is just a test more so of being able to read the player, opposed to the situation. Reading the situation will definately help determine what hes going for (attack or throw), but Testament's high/low game gives him way too many options that start with the same move but the second move hits differently (examples in wake up game section).
3) This ties into #1. Does he end with forward barney, back barney, tree, web, nothing, or worse gravedigger/badlands/warrant? In all examples except forward barney, you can, if you're not frozen in fear, reverse the momentum of the match, or in worse case reset the match. Back barney can easily be jumped or in some cases you can just run forward and avoid it completely, both of which lead to free combos if he doesn't FRC, even then it generally leaves him at neutral in the best case scenario. 80% of the time, the only reason back barney works mid pressure string is because you're scared of what he COULD do. For the next part about trees and webs, you should try to look for which one he favors, trees or webs. This may seem trivial, but trust me, its not. The recovery on laying down a tree is way longer than a web, however, the payoff for a tree hitting is much much better than webs and trees hit more often than webs anyways. The difference in recovery is the difference between being able to regularly punish and not. Quite a few moves and or overdrives can punish Testament for ending block strings with tree easily (fafnir, invite hell, head slide, etc). Webs are harder to straight up punish, but in most cases its worth throwing out a long range poke (that doesn't have lots of recovery) or special move if nothing other than destroy the web he just put out. When it comes down to it, Testament's defense is pure balls, if you nullify his traps and essentially reset the situation back to being a few character lengths apart, no traps out, and more or less equal frame advantage, then you're better off than he is 90% of the time. At points like this Testament has to play more cautiously because he 1) has no fast reliable anti air 2) no invincible move or really high priority poke.
The only thing you have to worry about is forward barney, but most of the time the best way to attack testament is jumping at him. In rare cases, block strings ending mostly in 5HS, will end with that and no special move. I chalk this up mostly to execution error, because theres no benefit to doing this, he doesn't really gain any more frame advantage opposed to any other option and if he ends with sweep hes left at serious frame disadvantage. And if the Testament player is complete trash, he'll try to end a blocke string with warrant (dumb, active frames wear off before he can be hit), badlands/gravedigger which get blocked because you blocked the attack string..duh. The only thing to watch out for with gravediggers is the ambiguous frame advantage you get when you block it. I've thrown and gotten thrown way to often after a blocked gravedigger than I'd like.
***Traps and Getting past them*** This section is going to be difficult to really explain because there is no universal answer. Every character has to deal with trees and webs differently because of how they move and what pokes/specials/etc they have at their disposal to get rid of them. First off, trees disappear when testament gets hit or they go off, webs are nullified if you hit them before they activate (note, you can run into/jump into and block a web before it activates). Second, you need to recognize where he placed his traps. The typical player will drop webs mostly in the air to prevent jump ins and position himself either on top or just behind trees to stop your ground advance. w=web, T=testament, t=tree, y=you
w w Tt t y ----------------------------------------- w Tt w ----------------------------------------- Something similar to these 2 set ups will be typical to what you'll encounter if the Testament player is left alone to set up his traps. Generally the Testament player will try to spam back barney and try to force you to run in at him. Keep in mind, these set ups are done only if given adequate time; a lot of times when a Testament player is jumping back, they'll place the web(s) in the air to cover their retreat. You always have to keep track of what you have and have not triggered. Sometimes trees/webs are put out but Testament runs past them or hits you across the screen but never triggers the trap. They're still there until he: 1) Overrides the trap. Testament can have a max 2 trees and (I think now) 2 webs out at any given time. 2) They wear off. There is a finite lifetime to webs where they will automatically be triggered after a certain amount of time (I've never bothered timing it, really because its reasonably long maybe 20 seconds?). Trees never disappear without being triggered/Testament getting hit.
***Barney (exe beast)*** This move is good. Theres 2 versions to this move, forward barney and backwards barney. Both can be FRC'd to give obnoxious frame advantage and both also lead to combos on hit (but most of the time require FRCs to combo). Mostly used for maintaining or starting his pressure. Since they have different general uses and properties, I'll talk about each separately.
First lets look at backwards barney. Backwards barney is almost the same as it was in GGXX. It appears at the end of the screen where Testament is facing, so if Testament is on the 1P side, barney would appear at the edge of the right side of the screen. The FRC point (for both barnies) is right as barney pops out of the ground. Without FRC, backwards barney is mostly useless because of the long recovery on the move (doesn't give him frame advantage most of the time). However, if backwards barney is used as a meaty, it can still gain 5-7 frames of advantage without FRC. On regular hit, backwards barney can lead to air combos if the Testament player is looking for it, though mostly used to start up pressure.
Forward barney...this move is the reason Testament is top tier, frankly. This move is both amazing offensively as well as defensively. On offense, this move gives pretty decent frame advantage without FRC and with FRC gives Testament free reign over what he wants to do with you. Anywhere on the screen after a knockdown (within barney range) it can be used to OTG you into either badlands loop or 1 hit badlands (BL) combo (corner no tension 1 hit BL combo, if not fully in the corner, can sometimes lead to BL loops. Everywhere else FRC required for badlands loop; also distance dependant). This move, while ridiculiously good for pressure and setting up combos anywhere on the screen, also can be used defensively because it doesn't dissapear when Testament gets hit. So..to illustrate why this move is stupid good, lets look at the Testament vs Potemkin match up. Lets say Potemkin netted a 2D knockdown on Testament. Potemkin decides to try and go for a head slide as Testament is waking up. In response, Testament can throw out a forward barney to TRADE with head slide such that both players are knocked to the ground. However, barney will hit Potemkin CH, meaning that Potemkin will be a bit floaty on his fall AND will have increased wake up time. What this leads to is Testament getting up before Potemkin, even though head slide has a longer knockdown duration AND on top of that, Testament has taken no damage while Potemkin eats around 50 for a CH barney. This situation can be applied to most match ups, Testament can trade with forward barney and still end up winning the trade because barney will always net a knockdown, and in the case the other character didn't chose a move that knocks down too, Testament gets to start up his wake up game.
Barney's blindspot, however, is that it doesn't have an active hit box right in front of Testament, so in some cases you can run through it and avoid getting hit. The range it reaches to is also limited, so learn the distances it travels and takes to have an active hit box, both are hella important.
***Wake Up Game*** Short disclaimer here before I get into this. I'll try to list FIRST the things you'll generally see from random scrub ass Testaments before I get into the demented mix ups, however, also note that most of these mix ups are universal to whenever Testament gets an opening. When he runs at you with frame advantage expect the high/low/throw game that I'll be talking about here. Options include:
1) 2K, 5c.S, 2S, 2D, barney/BL - pretty basic low string, can lead to BL loops. 2) 2K, 5c.S, 5f.S, 5HS, barney/BL/GD - basic variation to #1, can also lead to BL loops. 3) 6P, 5c.S, 2S, 2D, barney/BL - the basic high mix up, can lead to BL loops. 4) 6P, 5c.S, 5f.S, 5HS, barney/BL/GD - basic variation to #3, can lead to BL loops.
This begings the ghetto mix up tricks that you odds are won't see from scrubs. 5) 2K, 6P, 5c.S, 2S, 2D, barney/BL - old school low then high mix up trick, actually I think most of these can lead to BL loops so I'm gonna stop writing that. 6) 2K, 6P, 5c.s, 5HS, barney/BL/GD - variation to #5 7) 5c.S, 6P, 5c.S, 2S, 2D, barney/BL - The new trick to landing 6P, pretty gayass, but it works really well. EDIT: You can't always land the 2S, character dependent (I think). 8) 2P, 6P, 5c.S, 5HS, barney/BL/GD - a mix up I use a lot myself, fakes a fast "low" hit but really hits you high soon after. 9) 2P, 6P, 5c.S, 2S, 2D, barney/BL - variation to #8 10) 2P, 2K, 5c.S, 2S, 2D, barney/BL - low mix up to #8. Mixing between this and #8 fucks people up. 11) 2P, 2K, 5c.S, 5f.S (sometimes omitted), 5HS, barney/BL/GD - variation to #10
These next few are just common tick throw set ups 12) (you) block web, throw - most basic tick throw off the web normally thrown on top of you on wake up 13) 2K, throw - another common tick throw 14) 2P/5P, throw 15) random back barney, run up throw
Its almost guaranteed that you'll have a web on top of you during these mix ups. If you have an uppercut or overdrive (with good invincibility) use it occasionally to make the Testament start guessing when he can/can't pressure for free. In some cases there will be trees dropped on top of you, remember what I said about trees having more recovery than webs. If they're placed too late, you get a free throw/combo on wake up, however, there are set ups that look like they're unsafe, but really are. These set ups often go something like..tree, backdash, you get hit by tree, run up combo. Or in the case of what Josh and I call the Shounen combo: tree, jump straight up, AD forward, BL, BL loop. This shit hits everyone, don't be ashamed if you get hit by it.
***Random Notes*** Also take note of WHEN they generally lay traps down. A tendency that I'm personally guilty of, along with a lot of Testament players is to end a far/midrange block string with web or tree. In most cases this is safe for the Testament player because 1) he could mix up with barney and midrange barney FRC'd = manlands loop. And 2) he isn't left at terribly frame disadvantage considering the distance hes at. Why am I mentioning this then? Because Testament is still left at disadvantage if you can see this coming and react to it.
This will be an important point in deciding how to play the match out. If he likes to sit behind his traps, you have to start thinking about how you're going to get past his traps(discussing later cause it takes way too long). If he likes to rush down without, or with limited, trees and webs, then the situation becomes much easier to reverse in your favor.
-If you can "sense, psychic" or whatever else a random web/tree being placed, this is an ideal place to attack Testament. More so in the case of a web because you are guaranteed to kill it if you throw a hit box out, not as much though the chance of getting a CH is much higher, when you try to punish a tree. There will be a number of times where Testament will try to set up his trap defense mid screen. You shouldn't let him do this for free unless you're somehow powering up yourself (Jam charges, OS charge, etc). In the case that you want to exploit putting up traps, you have to approach differently depending on web or tree.
*Webs* You should either IAD and mash on j.p (if your j.p is rapid fire, i.e. you can mash it and it continuously comes out without delay) or if you're feeling ballsy, timing a bigger attack is ideal, though sometimes difficult to land because the web can catch you if your hit box doesn't come out in time. In either option, you should be looking to KILL THE WEB, rather than hitting Testament because the main thing here is to GET IN and not give Testament free damage. However, be careful that hes not sitting on top of a tree when you IAD because if he blocks your attacks and you don't recover in time, you eat a CH tree which leads to a free 1 hit BL combo and knockdown/BL loops.
You can also use this time to run in a bit and throw out a poke to kill webs. Keep in mind that this won't remove any webs in the air which can be bad if you intend to somehow launch Testament for an air combo. Choose a move that reaches reasonably far, and doesn't have a lot of recovery (not HS/D if you can help it). Projectiles are a good option here if you have one.
*Trees* If your run is sufficiently fast, you can run close enough to throw out a fast poke, FB, or overdrive. The idea here is to actually tap Testament, it doesn't have to be huge damage like fafnir or an overdrive (though if you can, do it) , but you need to hit Testament while hes in recovery so his traps are disarmed more so than anything else. Also, if you have a hit box out and hit Testament, you disarm any webs in the immediate area at the same time.
Otherwise, you can IAD like you would against webs, however, like mentioned above this means that you NEED to either hit Testament or jump in blocking. Don't be overly shy because the recovery on laying down a tree is pretty long, so don't automatically throw a laggy attack if you chose this option, use j.p liberally, and judge whether or not you'll be able to catch him during your air dash.
-Another related note... If you can get rid of his trap set ups by jump in blocking, its not always a bad thing. This can also catch the Testament off guard and still give you an advantage, even though you actually are at a disadvantage. The term "stealing" comes to mind because you're essentially taking away an advantage that he should have, but because hes caught by surprise he'll probably block because Testament doesn't have any good fall back moves (anything with invincibility).
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 12, 2008 16:50:41 GMT -5
Good shit on Testament. Guess that oughta bring us to
EDDIE
Frankly, I don't feel qualified enough to do this. I'll try anyway. I can't even put all the crazy Eddie concepts into practice in a game because there's so much to this character... here's to trying.
Normals
Eddie's normals all suck. 6P is anti-air.. just watch for it. If you wanna beat it, use something with a massive hitbox that'll reach his knees. Just remember that all his normals are pretty slow and need to be thrown out somewhat pre-emptively. That's where the mind games really come into play vs. Eddie. Finding out the Eddie's tendencies will help you win, so you can dodge all the hitboxes he tries to throw at you. Getting into the Eddie player's mind, combined with a knowledge of the situations is key to beating good Eddies.
Gameplan (ideal Eddie, I'll cover actual RL, non-Ogawa Eddies in a bit)
Eddie wants to summon little Eddie in as safe a manner as possible. When the shadow is out, it can do five attacks:
1. P attack - A slight poke. Decent amount of block stun for a seemingly small tap, and the shadow is invincible for like 10 frames when the poke comes out. About 1/6 of the shadow gauge is consumed.
2. K attack - The braindead backwards 2 hit claw that brings you back into Eddie. This is used a lot in pressure because... well.. it's easy to use in that manner. 1/3 of the shadow gague is consumed.
3. S attack - Eddie Uppercut. It covers a lot of air and has a tad bit of invincibility on startup. Nastiest Eddie attack of the five. About 27 percent consumption. The numbers aren't clean. Sue me.
4. HS attack - Puddle. Hits low, sets up unblockable. The entire gague is consumed.
5. D attack - Projectile Overhead. The shadow barfs an Ebola ball out and hits high. Sets up other unblockables. 60% of the gauge is consumed.
Each attack is done by the RELEASE of a button. The most sensible way of doing things, but really hard to do when a lot of shit is going down. You don't need to have all the gauge to do an attack. If you have 25% of a gauge left, you can still do the D attack. It'll just consume what it can and empty. Knowing how to whore the gauge is also key.
A "dry summon" is a summon done on its own, not in a block string, or anything like that. Just a plain summon of Eddie without an attack. This is the less used, but probably more effective method of summoning, because it may not be safe. On the other hand, if little Eddie comes out, then the Eddie uppercut and drills combined make for a pretty harsh zoning game. Discount how you see me use it.. my reactions suck ass. Eddie's zoning game is probably the best in the game because of the immense threats each opening represents.
Once the zoning game begins, Eddie needs to make the screen as unsafe as possible with all the variations of Eddie attacks it has. Drills can open up decent combo possibilities because the shadow can pick up the opponent for a juggle and Eddie can do the j.k, j.hs, j.d combo right after... from anywhere in the screen. This makes the drills seem deadlier. Eddie Uppercuts make the air seem less welcoming, since they can also open up combos. The goal here isn't to score game winning damage, even though the opponent can get softened up real nice. Eddie wants to either pin the opponent down from a safe distance to start some rushdown, or get a knockdown for the same goal. Once that occurs, Eddie's insane offense truly begins. I won't go into the details of the offense yet, since there's a slight critical point between the zoning phase and the rushdown phase of his game.
A summon during pressure is the alternative to the zoning game, and most Eddies use this method to get the shadow out because it's easier to do. However, this is escapable in some cases. Some common methods of pressure summon:
1) 5K, c.s, summon - You'll see me use this a lot. You can actually jump this. However, I can mix up between K summon to lock you on the ground, or Uppercut to hit the jump.
2) 5K, c.s, 2S, summon - It'll be S summon on this one. There's room to actually backdash this if your reactions are fast. However, this can be mixed with K summon to hit your backdash and bring you back to Eddie for pain.
3) Gatling to HS, summon - The most guaranteed way to summon. I don't like this method too much, because my preference is to always keep the opponent conditioned to think that they have slight openings to escape. This one is escapable, but usually needs the second hit of the HS to be IB'd, and then you can jump from the summon. However, the backdash/jump dynamics apply here again.
4) Summon off any light attack - The riskiest method of summon on paper, but if not overused, the most successful form. People will often expect the light attack to be cancelled into another normal, so they'll keep blocking.
In any case, if the summon is successful, then the insanity begins. The K summon mixups are the most pertinent on block.
K Summon mixups:
1) 5K, c.S - Low mixup, leads to knockdown and puddle or D Attack + drill unblockable.
2) 6K, Drunkard Shade - High mixup, leads to tension gain, knockdown, and more unblockables.
3) Random taps from light attacks - I'll cover these in a later section, but just know that the mode of rushdown can be shifted.
4) j.k, dj.k, dj.s - High attacks from the air, just to give you something to see. Can be comboed into knockdown. Mixed up with...
5) j.k, land, 5K - When you expect the second high attack... oops! low.
6) j.k, land, Damned Fang - Use of j.k to freeze the opponent and tick into command throw.
7) j.k, land, 6K - I'm never confident enough to try for this, but if you get hit by it, just concede the game. You have to be hella scared to get hit by this.
Results of K summons
When any of the above mixups work, you'll get knocked down by something, and either have the puddle dropped under you, or you'll eat an Ebola Ball/Drill unblockable. Getting hit by one opening should usually mean eating two combos, not one.
P/S summons
Whereas the K summons keep you in the same spot over and over again to get mixed up, only so many attempts can be had because it uses up the gauge so quickly. P/S summon pressure is a little more effort consuming, but also safe. You can push the opponent into the corner, at the cost of high/low mixups. Eddie can try for an occasional overhead after some gatling into S summon attack, for instance... but it's too slow since Eddie needs to run up real deep and then try for it. Too much time to get poked out of it.
Instead, P/S summons try to create ambiguous events to bait the opponent into jumping or poking back when it isn't warranted. There's also ALWAYS the threat of command grab when in this mode of rush. Some key points of note:
1) Invite Hell - The drills usually don't allow for followups, but when the shadow is out, try not to twitch too much after blocking the drill. Another attack can come.
2) P summon tap - Either another set of normals or a command grab can come after this.
3) 2D, FB Drill - What happens here is that the D button is released after the sweep, which barfs the Ebola ball out for the overhead and the FB Drill covers the low. This is blockable, however, because the overhead and Drill are not in sync. You can visually gauge the distance of the Ebola Ball to figure out whether you block high or low first. Or you can jump FD to make sure you're safe, but this needs slightly faster reactions. This mixup is also available during the K mixups, but it's more effective here because the mode the opponent is put into makes them worry about the throw instead of the high/low. Can be comboed into a lot of other Big Drills for juvenile damage.
What makes Eddie troublesome is that the mode of rushdown can shift at any moment. Even after knowing the conventions of Eddie rushdown, the player can then use what the opponent knows against them, and do something so incredibly high-risk, which will work for high reward.
FRC Drill Unblockable
After a S Invite Hell hit (and backdash), or Shadow Gallery loops, will put the foe at the perfect distance to have a meaty HS Invite Hell put on top of them. This is then FRC'd into IAD j.s, which causes an unblockable into air combo.
CH Eddie Uppercut
Just so you all know this, even though it's not put into practice a lot:
CH Eddie Uppercuts are actually Eddie's nastiest opening. Not the high hits that lead into Shadow Gallery Loops and another unblockable after that, not the command grab in the corner which allows for summon + drill unblockables.... not any of that. CH Eddie Uppercut leads to straight death, unless you're Axl and can't get hit with IK.
It goes like this: CH Eddie Upper, 6P, j.k, j.hs, Eddie Upper, Shadow Gallery (1 hit), puddle dropped, you fall on top, crossup j.s (UB), 6Px2-3 (dizzy), IK mode, IK
For a while, it was assumed this would be the end of all AC, because it's a pretty common opening for something that kills the opponent. However, it's hard to get the height correct for this combo to work. It won't work consistently because of human error, but I'll list it here so that you know about it.
If Lt. Commander Data ever played GGAC, we'd all lose.
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 12, 2008 17:07:30 GMT -5
How to Beat Eddie?
This gets another post, because the other is already long and kinda disorganized. There's just too much to this character. However, you should just know Eddie can't be beat. Now go lose.
Well, that's only if you're playing Ogawa.
I'll start with the little tricks that'll help you not die outright to Eddie: JUMP FD. When the unblockable comes, there's no reason not to try this. However, on the off chance it's badly timed, Jump FD will save you from two combos worth of death.
On puddle unblockables, wake up with an uppercut. However, really good Eddies with tight timing can cross you up with the overhead. It is said that of all the recorded matches, there is only one instance of someone able to uppercut the crossup overhead, and it was Kaqn. Motherfucker.
If you're good at IB, you can IB the first hit of the K summon attack and jump out of the way. However, Eddie can poke you between that and still hit you on the jump startup. It's still something to know in case you block the K attack from farther away, though.
Figuring out where the drills are distanced is good, though. It's incredibly tempting to dash into position, hit a drill, and start pressure. If you see this coming, you can often air dash out of the way or use a far reaching super to punish. Brian is pretty good at this.
Always start blocking low on the K summon pressure. If you see Eddie lean back funny, shift to high block. Just block correctly at all times and you beat Eddie. I'm so useful.
In the zoning phase, a good way to catch Eddie is to keep track of which buttons he might have held down for the attack. If Eddie releases S, for example, he has to press it again to prepare the uppercut, which frankly isn't gonna be done, because Eddie will whiff a laggy normal for it, and it's dangerous to just press and release the button on reaction, because Eddie becomes more vulnerable and can't followup. What is usually done is that Eddie will try to position a drill to be hit or blocked so he can press down the requisite buttons for the shadow again and be ready for more attacks. Ogawa sometimes sinks into the ground for this too, which is a good idea. However, take advantage of the execution difficulties and the problems they present in the zoning phase. Even though Eddie looks so good on paper, this shit can't get done ALL the time.
Play the player. Recognize the tendencies. You guys can have me beat on this one since you know me well, but the key to killing Eddie consistently is to find the ability to outthink whatever Eddie player you come across. At least knowing what the possibilities are is a good first step.
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 12, 2008 17:43:16 GMT -5
After that insane heavy post, I'll move to a lighter hearted subject before we die to the despair that is Eddie KyosukeBaikenKyosuke Baiken doesn't have unblockables, so he's she's beatable. The only thing you need to worry about from him her is the random 200 200 damage combos he she can hit you with... from anywhere. Sometimes when you're on offense, too. That's it. Normals: 1) Sweep - TATAMI! It doesn't hurt to remember that this normal is JC'able, and Americans love jumping into HS. 2) c.S - I rate this as the most sinister of her pressure normals, because it can be TK'd right into Yousanzen (YSZ), cancelled into sweep, or as a critical point to drop pressure and try to run back in. Japanese people are afraid of this thing, because the Baikens they come across make this normal such a brutal tool. I've seen this move used as a tick throw. 3) 2K - Its tickability combined with its ability to cancel into c.S make it a pain to deal with. 4) 6K - Completely throw invulnerable. Baiken learned this move from Order Sol, before he became regular Sol and forgot how to use the move as a result of having an affair with Justice and fathering Dizzy, and then turning gay with Ky. Guilty Gear rocks. Also can be chained to... 5) 2HS - Vacuum effect and like, +5 on block, with anti-air possibilities. It's slow to come out.. but WTF? 6) j.S - Clubs you in the face. Careful. 7) j.HS - Stabs you in the face. Ouch. Counters 412P - A decent anti-air counter, which on CH floats for Dust combos. Its lack of invulnerability and difficulty to get CH with makes the move less seen. 412K - Baiken runs past the enemy and crosses up. The crossup takes a while, and if the opponent is brain-dead gatling, Baiken can be hit at the end of the movement. Not completely useless for poke moves with no followup, like Testament 6HS. 412S - Classic counter. Can now be FRC'd into 5D for incredible damage thanks to the CH start of the combo. I ground chain Baiken for pressure and she returns 200 damage to me? Pika? 412HS - Spaz flying counter. It's pretty good for far range pokes, and with proper distancing, she can far slash into j.D for a quick combo. 412D - Force Break counter. Can followup on CH with a straight gatling into combo, or use another 25% tension to seal your run/jump, make all hits on you CH hits for a while, or seal your bunghole block. Gameplan Now that we know the counters, the gamplan is to abuse them... without abusing them too much. Baiken has the advantage of staying relatively safe from zealous pressure from counters alone, so zoning with Claw, normals, and Tatamis is done with minimal interference. This can whittle away at the opponent until they're impatient and try to get hits in. That's when CH's are scored by Baiken, or counters start doing their work. Another method of playing Baiken is to play on the popular dynamic of starting the game in the zoning phase, and then zone, zone, zone, till you get the offense going. Baiken moves fairly quickly, and since most people expect Baiken to do just that, Baiken can use that as a chance to start offense right off the bat. A few tick throws in this scenario is a good way to make the opponent edgy, and attempts to poke out of pressure can be blocked, and therefore countered on the offensive, and get more damage. This combined with all the potential mixups of her offense makes it hard to deal with her. How to beat Baiken? Depends on your character. Eddie, for example, has a few tricks which involve cancelling into 2HS randomly to catch Baiken's flying spaz counter. But if you want to avoid them in general, use moves with quick recovery, and drop pressure every now and then to mix up your own timing. You'll have room to block some counters this way. Throw the bitch. Any serious Baiken player is looking for the counter at some point, and identifying that point is good. When you shift the flow of the match using a few key throws, Baiken stops wanting to look for counters, and will instead try to push the offense (zoning is less attractive here because doing it against an opponent who isn't afraid of the counters is much more difficult to do psychologically). Baiken's offense is good, mind you, but her methods of running straight in and starting it from out of nowhere... not as good. Use this point to get some cheap shots in. Sweep the bitch during the blocking run! That's all for now, I guess.
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 17, 2008 21:45:51 GMT -5
Running out of characters... I don't play this assclown, but there are a few things I am aware of while fighting this imbecile: AXLI won't go into too many normals, since they're mostly designed to all do the same thing - reach hella far. He can cover virtually any angle in front of him, so assume he always has a poke for the space you're in. The one slightly more vulnerable one is where his 6K covers, but that's more pre-emptive of an attack than a reactive one, because it's slower. If you aren't aware of 6K, it's the one where he lashes out with his chain upwards at a 45 degree angle from behind his back. Plug the game in if you don't know what I mean. Axl's normals aren't completely useless up close either, even if they're not the fastest ever (5k is 6 frames, his fastest normal). Gameplan Uhh, poke a lot? Well, it's a source of damage over a period of time, but the real goodness is when Axl has a chance to get in to see if he can score some gatling to FRC (Men)Rensengeki, which leads to a painful air combo with possible relaunches via (Asshole) Axl Bomber. This annoyance pays dividends, because Axl can frustrate an opponent into predictably attacking once they get in close, and the counters can come into play. Though the counters themselves have been massively downgraded in damage, they offer a combo opening anywhere on the screen. Pretty tight stuff. Axl has mixups, but they're easier to block than Testament's, and well... blockable unlike Eddie's. If he ever scores the knockdown, usually by gatling you into his stupid blue ball throw, or a sweep, or Mensengeki, he has some interesting shit to do to you. Most people will just go for the low by default because that's easy to do, so 2K is the faster, easier low to go for. Axl's 3P, however, has a deceptive delay to it, but is fast enough to hit on wakeup. This, too, hits low and gatlings into sweep, so that's something to know about, because it means sweep cancels to Mensengeki, FRC, painful combo. 3P also has some frame advantage on block, so a saucier Axl might run after it. The scrubby high/low comes in the form of 6HS/2HS, both which gatle into one another. It's quite blockable, fortunately, so long as you know it's coming. 6HS, is safe on block, unless it's somehow done ultra-deep, which is unlikely for Axl. 6HS isn't the true high threat, nor is 5D - it's tigerknee Asshole Bomber Dive. This overhead will ground bounce into guaranteed pain, with a mere 90% prorate. A trained eye will notice the startup, though, so it's not something used often. The last bit of a threat is throw, and Axl doesn't have tons of ticks. It's possible to get someone to zone out a bit because of Axl's long, spaced out strings, but this isn't a preferred way to get damage in. Let's see.. there are some ghetto tricks with Axl to be played when you're playing against someone with a brain, like cancelling blue ball throw against a person who can react and jump it, and then throwing out 2S into air combo. Run up counter works against a lot more people. Sometimes run up throw is good against people conditioned to watch for the 3P delay. As always, characters who have high-hitting specials will love to jump-in or airdash with a normal and occasionally cancel into the special. Axl does this with Bomber... and it can lead to significant damage. The last ghetto trick I know of is a setup after knockdown where Axl superjumps over the opponent's prone body, whiffs j.hs, then does Axl Bomber post-recovery. It's deceptive because people expect him to be in recovery all the way to the ground. How to beat Axl? My observations on this matchup in general is that the flow goes dependant on how the match starts. If a player goes aggro from an angle Axl isn't expecting to cover, Axl can find himself on the ropes for a little bit. Axl doesn't have a lot of "get off me" moves, even with Mentengari (His dragon punch move). It's not terribly invincible, though it still provides enough invincibility to get the active hitbox out. Even then, it's not necessary to go point blank on Axl to pressure. Otherwise, the match gets to be the more patient one. As with Dhalsim, it's good to figure out what the player is watching for and occupy the space he *isn't* ready to poke. This is not an endorsement to start flying down from the air, mind you, unless you play against a tard Axl who doesn't know how to utilize 2S and/or 6P. Frustrating the zoning game is the most solid way to go... how that's done is often character dependant. Utility moves like Faust items or Zappa ghosts, and Ky projectiles are all ways to annoy Axl right back. If you find yourself on the defensive, figure out if your character has a way of punishing Axl for overextending his offensive options. It could be viable, for instance, to 6P Axl right out of an attempted TK Bomber. Finally, don't let Axl get his knockdowns. Dash break now and then to make sure you don't eat random Mensengeki (or the followup!), 2HS, 2D, or shit like that. Even though Axl has a lot of damage potential, he can't force it using speed or insane high/low shit, so a bit of patience is okay imo. I might describe this as a match you'd play assertively, to show that you're willing to push forward despite a lot of blocked pokes, but not get predictable and walk into some form of Axl bait. Jon, if you have some opinions on this one, you should add some too, since you used to play Axl and stuff. All this stuff is concluded theory from videos .
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Post by buhwhyen on Jan 17, 2008 22:57:38 GMT -5
So we have stuff on..... 1) Anji 2) Slayer 3) Potemkin 4) Order Sol 5) Testament
6) Eddie 7) Baiken 8) Jam 9) Chip 10) Sol 11) Axl 12) Ky
Characters not done... 1) Dizzy 2) A.B.A 3) Bridget 4) Johnny 5) Venom 6) Ino 7) Faust?
I think thats it...
***Dizzy*** Disclaimer: This isn't really gonna be overly helpful in terms of what she's capable of, I'm just gonna talk about the real big shit.
*Fish* Fucking fish...I don't even want to think about how many rounds/games I've lost to this gayness. Why is fish good? because once it comes out it stays out till it uses all it's attacks or it gets hit (if you hit Dizzy on startup the fish never comes out, but its surprisingly difficult to do, for me anyways). Similarly, and yet not in other aspects i.e. can't be killed/canceled out with an attack, to Testament's barney (exe beast) even if Dizzy gets hit AFTER fish comes out, fish keeps attacking. What does this mean? It means that if say Slayer throws out DoT (superman punch of doom) just as the fish comes out (I use this example because its happened to me an uncountable number of times) the fish will absorb the hit from DoT leaving Dizzy without any guard stun and free to punish you. Keep in mind that ANYTIME the fish touches your attack's hit box, it will absorb the attack instead of Dizzy.
Its attacks include... 1) short bite - attacks 4-5? times. Moves a small bit forward and bites you, does minimal damage and is mostly used to make you block. However, in previous incarnations of GGXX more so, it can also be used to set up tick throws. In general don't try to attack between the fish bites, Dizzy can also try to bait CHs, though you can IAD back to escape occasionally (regular jumps work too, though to a lesser extent). 2) long bite (I'm hella good at naming attacks) - attacks 2-3 times. Moves forward 1/3 - 1/2 screen and bites. More delay between hits than short bite. 3) low laser - shoots a laser at chest level for most characters, shoots once. 4) high laser - shoots a laser at most characters normal jump height, shoots once.
Basically Dizzy can issue 2 commands per summon now, most commonly you get 2 low lasers, low laser/long bite, short bite/low laser. -Dealing with the fish- Fish is gay. Most characters really just have to block while the fish is out. It sucks, but its the best option unless you like eating damage. There are times when you can 5P or 2P the fish and remain safe, but you have to gauge the situation yourself there, it depends a lot on distancing/positioning and your character. However...when I say the best option is to block, I definitely don't mean freeze and let Dizzy pressure you for free without moving around. Remaining mobile is key to avoid getting thrown/mixed up, eating damage, and being reset all at once.
If, and I do mean only if, your character has a fast run like Order Sol or A.B.A in transformed mode, you can run up to Dizzy when she throws out fish (non-knockdown), I do this a lot and it can also lead to very short matches...not always in your favor, mind you. Theres also a very specific spacing for IADs and jumps where you can jump over the fish and under the lightning spike which is another good opening to be looking for.
Other characters with projectiles can try to kill the fish with their projectiles.
***Mix ups*** In general Dizzy has no high/low mix up without knockdown, however what most Dizzy players will do is throw out a fish issue low laser as a first command to get you blocking then IAD either j.2s or j.hs then here is where the mix up comes in. From here Dizzy can either air dash again for another high hit or land -> low hit or throw. In general like most mix ups blocking low is the better way to go, you *can* react to the air dash though its supposed to be hella difficult. But I'd still bank on low hits most of the time if I had to guess without any other information (on player tendency, etc), particularly if the player isn't super good.
In general keep in mind that Dizzy has 2 air dashes per jump, meaning she can fake IAD backwards and air dash forward instantly after with j.2s (this move is stupid good) and bait hella CHs. I've been hit with this shit way too many times and its actually really fast and difficult to uppercut on reaction. Most importantly, don't throw out shitty anti airs. If she jumps at you for the love of god just don't throw out a mediocre AA (anti air) or a late good AA, just block. Don't hand Dizzy free damage, especially CH damage, because the rounds will end pretty damn fast if you do. I'd actually go as far as to suggest you only use AAs with high hit boxes, none of this mid hitting bullshit. The reason being, Dizzy's hit box (I've come to think) seems to be raised when she does a j.2s which actually makes a lot of normally good/solid AAs miss. And there are some CHs where combos are possible, but the timing is pretty strict....Dizzy's CHs are not those kind of CHs; she can hit confirm easier than in 3s (read: mental retard easy) if she scores jump in CHs.
***General game play*** Like I've been saying this whole time...just be patient. This is an odd match for most of the cast, where even if you're used to going balls out all the time it won't work the same. Dizzy's mobility is nutty and she has some high priority jump ins, her ground normals have been downgraded a lot, but trying to bull rush in the match up generally leads to you leaving the machine. The key in the match up is really just surviving her pressure when fish is out and not getting owned by random jump ins.
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 17, 2008 23:36:33 GMT -5
An addition to Dizzy's mixups, and I may regret posting it, is that when you train someone to expect IAD forward between fish, she can IAD, delay, double dash j.2s, j.hs to fuck you up. It works more often that you would think. Millia has a similar mixup to score a knockdown too.
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Post by Pikachu on Jan 18, 2008 2:30:12 GMT -5
Holy fuck, I didn't create a Faust section.
FAUST
Faust is like, not as insane as he used to be. He's fair now, and fair in Accent Core still means really good. Do not fall into the mindset like the rest of American non-Faust players. Do not listen to the fanboys and idiot novices: FAUST IS NOT FUCKING RANDOM. His items are. Faust is not. Understand that difference or you will probably die.
Moves in general
Gonna lump normals and specials into one section because they're very integrated.
They all reach far, and his anti-airs, when selected properly, are very effective.
1. 5K - shuts down low IADs. 2. 6P - upwards handsmack that's good for anything that comes from that angle 3. FDC (explained later) j.hs - like Dr. Doom's jumping horizontal laser in MvC2
Ground wise, he can take up a chunk of the screen:
1. 5S - if you don't know what this move is, shoot yourself. What should be noted is that its recovery is longer than it used to be 2. 2D - deceptive reach... it's the move where he crouches and his head appears from below the ground and knocks you down 3. 5HS - shorter reach, relative to Faust's pokes, but fairly fast to stop run ins 4. Scalpel Stab - stabs across the screen... surprising priority on this, can lead to combos
Pogo
After pogo, he can:
1. Head Extend (I dunno the real name) - his head pops at a sharp downward angle... good for pogo pressure in the corner because of its immense block stun 2. Head Flower - Flower appears on head.. some invincibility, but small hit box... you gotta be hella good to anti air with this 3. Ground Flower - Flower appears from ground for hit... good blockstun on this, too 4. Going My Way - crazy spinning shit, best for combos 5. Item throw
Pogo pressure exists mainly in the corner, though Faust can hop forward fairly quickly to chase you with his janky attacks. They've beefed up the blockstun on it, and though I don't use it much personally, it's actually a pretty effective way of fighting just because it's so offbeat.
Item
Faust throws:
1. Food - Candy and donuts give life, chocolate gives tension 2. Chibis - Chibi RoboKy walks along the ground faster and on hit does more hit stun, Chibi Faust is just a normal Chibi that walks along the ground at average speed, Chibi Potemkin plods along slowly but can take 3 hits. Projectile status attacks can negate the Chibis, though Pot will still need 3 hits. Normals do not deal with them, and they are indeed annoying. 3. Coin - Powers up the pimp slap after the scalpel stab. Smeggy item to get. 4. Poison - Leaves out a cloud of poison, negates projectiles 5. Hammer - Hammer travels at a steep arc up and then down. Lots of dizzy on this and can sometimes allow Faust to quickly combo after a hit. Good deal of blockstun on this, too. 6. Washbin - Kind of like a larger hammer, but delayed fall. Kind of tracks the opponent but doesn't. I complain a lot about this stupid item, but it's pretty good. 7. Bomb - Fat bomb. Fat explosion. 8. Meteor - Takes a few seconds to fall, but only tracks from one direction. In other words, if a target switches sides, the Meteors will still fall in the direction it would be "aimed" when first thrown out.
FDC
Faust Fautless Defense Cancels his j.2k drill attack, and what this does is it gives him a slower descent off his jump. It also can be used for quick overheads right next to an opponent (FDC j.2k, j.k, for example). This used to be cooler when it was easier to combo off of, but now it's relegated to allowing Faust to use his j.hs at lower heights.
Gameplan
Faust is more zoning now, and his rush has diminished from the glory days. More recovery and less block stun make it so that he can't go absolutely balls out, but he can lock someone down for a bit, throw out an item, and watch for reactions and put out hit boxes accordingly. With 6P, 5S, Scalpel Stab, and Paper Bag Head Bombs taking up the space that it does, this is a fairly easy task for Faust, and he can still sneak in on you while you're busy looking for long range shit, due to his fairly fast run speed.
Even though item throwing leaves Faust slightly vulnerable, there's such a great chance of throwing out an extra hit box, it gives everyone pause to stick limbs out. Getting hit by hammers sucks. What this means is that Faust's goal is to try to get as much shit out on the screen as possible. Meteors and bombs tend to force people to play around them, and Faust can stave off the opponent's offense while planning his own in these scenarios. Otherwise, Faust starts pressure whenever an item forces an opponent to block or back off.
Faust's high/low consists of 6HS, FDC j.k (which is hard to combo with now) and Force Break Slap for highs, and an assortment of low attacks, like 2P and 2D. The high/low is hard to get going, but there are some ways to initiate this mixup by spacing fast recovery normals out, and suddenly canceling to the Force Break or gatling to 6HS via 5P. the 5P -> 6HS gatling is deceiving because 5P is a fairly benign normal that often chains to 2S, or 2D, or freezes an opponent up to dash back in. Just imagine pretending to use a frame trap, and suddenly initiating a high/low. That's fairly potent if you had a speedy character doing it, but that's why they slowed Faust down in general.
Faust's gatlings are very odd, which is good for helping him recover from some laggy normals, as well as do some really oddball chains. For instance, his 5S chains to 2K, his 2D chains to 2S or 5K, his 2HS cancels to 5 or 2P, and 2S goes to 5K. the ability to gatling backwards is a good way to switch up the frame traps as well as give the opponent something else to watch out for besides items. Tick throws become an interesting option as well, but due to the general slower recovery of Faust, this is less of a threat than it used to be back in Reload or X2.
2K, the crouching three hit kick, is a good normal because it can gatling straight to 5HS, or link to 5/2P. This forces the opponent to pause and consider the critical point this presents, and if they react incorrectly, can eat a moderate to a lot of damage. Opponents unaware of this critical point can die simply to the repetitive trap, much like Ky can do to a n00b with 6K. His rush can go into these options:
1. 2K, gatling 5HS, 2D, item/drill/pogo spaz 2. 2K, link 5P, gatling to item, drill, or knockdown 3. 2K, link 5P, dash in, more hits 4. 2K, link 5P tick throw 5. 2K, link 5P, 6HS, pogo pain 6. 2K, dash in, either 5P, 2K, or throw antics
This used to be more frightening due to the smaller gaps one had to react in the past, but in Accent Core, this is a little more reactionable. Nonetheless, there are a lot of options contained just in those 6 flowcharts that Faust can be creative with.
Any jump cancellable normal in a pressure string can go into FDC for instant overhead, or drill, Going My Way (air spinny attack), to get back in for more mixups.
On knockdown with 2D, one can IAD, then FDC into j.D for ambiguous crossups.
Jumping in with Force Break is another way of getting in, and then hopping forward + face/flower rush can be hard to deal with if you don't play against that kind of shit all the time.
How to beat Faust
If you can get past the zany items and pogo shit, keep an eye out for your own block stun. Being aware of your own block stun is good for escaping or even poking back, which is a more viable option of getting away from Faust now. Faust has the ability to change up your blockstun, because he can go from his heavy hits to his light ones, which can become a ghetto way of getting a lot of CH's or throws against someone who's timing is a bit off. If you know what's up, however, you can easily mash back between gaps, knock him down, and start your own mixups if you have them.
When Faust hits you with scalpel enema, mash any/all of your buttons, except dust. The onus is on the Faust player to input something before the opponent, or it's guaranteed angel. Therefore, you have nothing to lose by trying for the guaranteed angel by beating the Faust's input. You can't even burst on accident because you're hit with a super.
If you can react to Faust throwing out food, then you can use the auto-pilot gatling cancelled into item shit that Faust players are universally guilty of. You can't guarantee a punish, unless you Sausage Fang or Dead on Time, but you can shift momentum to your favor at least. Otherwise, just be careful of items that come out. Low awareness of items = death.
Use good 6P's against 5S. The exception is Testament.
Some IADs against Faust in the corner, especially from up close, is okay, because it's hard to react with 6P all the time, and if your character manages to dash just over him, 6P is an iffy option. 5K can't cover that spot, and even though 2S can hit there, it has to be incredibly pre-emptive to work.
Don't underestimate Faust's IAD. I used to believe in no IAD for Faust, but he has a lot of ways to cover his descent from the air, from FDC, paper bag bomb, drill, to Force Break. If you want to catch up with him, dash break a little so you close distance without eating unwarranted hits. However, if it's a scrubbier Faust without any FDC ability, he's fair game to chase after. Just watch for j.k, because I theorize that to be a likely button to be mashed.
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Post by buhwhyen on Jan 18, 2008 18:44:51 GMT -5
Random Order Sol discovery the other day while messing with new combos.. Sausage fang damage is actually distance dependent, level 2/3 only. What I mean by this is the closer/further you are can determine how much damage the super does (if not comboed into).
Level 2 - This is donkey shit if you're point blank, at which point a lot of times if not comboed into you only get 1 hit and it does a whopping 46 or 48 damage. Does consistent damage from more than a full body length away.
Level 3 - This level licks Alfred smeg if you're far away, seemingly the three lines that come from the ground are actually individual hit boxes...kind of. Basically the opposite of level 2, if you're close, this does max damage, otherwise you get shafted damage wise.
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Post by buhwhyen on Feb 29, 2008 19:47:32 GMT -5
So since I'm playing more Testament now, I've thought about a few things I didn't really divulge in great detail in my other post.
1) On knockdown, Testament normally puts a web or tree on top of you. Very important here to recognize quickly which he put down so you can react accordingly. In both cases, however, if the tree/web is put out late you can throw him before the tree/web goes off.
-If he puts down a web you should probably block unless you have something invincible, though tick throws are pretty easy to land off webs. -If he puts down a tree you really need to take notice of what he does right after that because how you react depends on what he does next. If he: a) Backdashes - This is what you'll see the most from me because it will keep Testament mostly safe from wake up mashing (non-overdrive and uppercuts) and net a CH and free combo if they do try to wake up with a move. After the backdash if the tree is blocked generally Testament runs back in to do his usual high low mix up, but you can also backdash, run in throw here but theres enough time between when the overhead or low should hit and when he throws you that you can react and tech. b) Meaty - This option frankly sucks in my opinion because Testament can easily be thrown if his timing is slightly off (The meaty attack will hit before the tree does so you can actually mash out a 3-4 frame move and beat out whatever he meaties with and at the same time kill the tree before it activates) c) Stand there - because hes a motherfucking idiot. Or it could be he messed up a dash or mistimed an attack...but either way you can easily wake up throw him. d) Jump - This one is hella messed up because you can delay the jump slightly to bait a throw attempt and get a CH off the tree. e) Shounen cross-up - I do this one, or try to, quite a bit. The idea is Testament drops a tree on top of you, jumps straight up and air dashes behind you and in the process crosses you up just before the tree hits and from there he badlands loops you. This one is so retardedly difficult to react to that I honestly don't know what to really suggest here. I guess you can try to block it, but good luck with that ^_^;;
2) Mix up review. As you all know Testament gets a lot of damage from his high low game. The real thing that you NEED to know about his mix up is that there are a lot of tricks to throw you off from telling what is coming. The basic idea of his high low is either you throw a 6P overhead (he turns around and hits you with the back end of his scythe) or 2K (crouching kick, duh)/2D (falls to the ground and sweeps at you with his scythe) for his high low. But he can use moves like 2P or 5c.S before throwing either high or low out to make it look like hes doing the opposite of what he actually is. My advice is to look for the 6P. Try to spot the move and then block high, otherwise just block low. Theres gonna be spam making it difficult to see, but you should be able to (after getting hit enough) be able to remember when an attack *should* be hitting for a given pressure string. If you don't block the low that should have hit by a certain time, hes probably either throwing out a high attack or going for a tick throw.
3) After a block string don't try to rush in as soon as you get out of block stun. This definitely won't apply to most American Testament players, but I do this quite a bit and that is to throw out a 6HS after a block string to catch people IAD'ing/starting a run. 6HS is the forward lunging one handed attack with the scythe. I throw this out most of the time when you're in the corner and anxious to get out after a block string.
4) When bursting a badlands loop, burst AFTER the first hit of a badlands. There are a number of characters (loop is character dependent) where you can throw out a 6K after the second badlands to get two more reps in. Bursts almost always miss on well spaced 6K's because it does have a weird hitbox and some invincibility. The place you DON'T want to burst is at the top or anywhere near the top of the arc you fly in, always do it right as you're getting hit by a badlands so you know it'll hit Testament.
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Post by Pikachu on Mar 3, 2008 15:51:48 GMT -5
For bursting Badlands loop, I just wait for the startup animation, because I don't want myself reacting to a one-hit Badlands where I can whiff the burst.
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