Guilty Gear

[Pikachu]

Yeah, it had to be done. Tons of better resources online than here, but I'd figure we could share little discoveries, give each other feedback, and be able to talk to each other on how to improve our game. We all have the potential to actually get good, but while we talk basic theory a lot, we don't get beyond that. Plus, I know Chip is getting into this game, and a lot of knowledge can be shared and kept here, as a quick reference.

Best English-based resource online for GG-related stuff is on dustloop.com. But there's a lot of shit to sift through, not to mention the info is a little disorganized between GG Slash and GGAC. I'd rather put beginner friendly shit here to get Chip and Alvin up to speed, and put more relevant issues with the game here as well as an experiement to see how much better we can get.

Hold nothing back. I'm gonna put up my thoughts openly, regardless of whether they can be used against me or not. I'm actually hoping they do, so I can force myself to adapt faster.

Edit: Guilty Gear is all on number notation. Just look at a keypad for reference to direction. 2, for instance, is straight down, while 6 is forward. 6P, for instance, stands for forward + punch. 236 stands for a fireball motion. The standard overdrive motion is 632146. Takes time getting used to, but with the directional command moves like Axl's 3P, most of the cast's really good 6P, and all that shit, learn this system so it's easier to everyone to refer to moves. Otherwise, someone will have to type forward + punch a LOT when talking about Johnny in general, or Eddie combos.

Edit #2: Other conventions you'll see me use that are less obvious:

c.s = close slash
f.s = far slash
j.k = jump kick... j.s is jump slash, and so forth
j.c. = jump cancel
dj.p = double jump punch
tj.hs - triple jump hardslash... applies to Chipp
ad.d = air dash dust
adc = air dash cancel... applies to Millia
FDC = fautless defense cancel: uses fautless defense to cancel the startup of a move, usually for a special effect of some sort. It's easier if I show it irl.
ji = jump install
otg = off the ground
IAD = instant air dash
xx = cancel (Ex: My favorite dee dee dee move with Faust is f.s xx item)

[NOTE: never, ever use c.<insert attack here> to indicate a crouching attack. Always use 2. Otherwise, it's hard to differentiate between 2s and c.s, which can matter a lot for characters like Slayer, as an example]

You should be able to read combo transcripts now to try a few for yourself. Here's an easy one for Chipp:

c.s, f.s, hs xx 236s xx 236s (Which translates to close slash, far slash, hard slash, sushi, sukiyaki. If I did banzai, there's an extra "xx 236k" at the end.)

It's really good to know all this notation. You'll then be able to visualize combos in your head and know how to do them when they're posted. It's not as intimidating as it looks... it's all vocab, and it's all good.

[Pikachu]

All the above being said... WTF should a person do when picking this game up?

I'm really fucking behind on this game, but past experience and observation has led to good results, and me, Justin, and Jon were on the verge of being fairly competitive in the past, so I'll just share what to pay attention to when starting out.

1) Learn normals. This is basic knowledge for all fighters, but GG's specials are really, really tempting. They're flashy, they move your character all over the screen... both of which make any beginner apt to use them more. I should practice this more.. I honestly don't think anyone can practice this enough.

2) Stay away from moves that move your character forward, unless you know how to keep them safe. This is scrub killer #1. It occasionally works, though, to be frank, and you may score some surprise hits in situations where you're probably not supposed to throw them out. That being said, overreliance on specials for mobility just fucks your game up, because your normal movement will just get very predictable.

3) Learn to dash for the following:

Instant Air Dash: This way, you don't fall into the habit of hopping back, and then dashing forward. This happens way too much, and I think I do it too much as well.

Dash Break: Learn to stop your ground dash instantly with Fautless Defense. This way you don't skid, and you can protect yourself. It's a really good fake to feel for pokes on occasion... the pros do this well.

Jumping: Not air-dashing... jumping. I've noticed that this is a prerequisite for truly masterful movement in this game. Knowing your distance for jumps and manipulating it with double jumps is so key. Learning how to get longer regular jumps without instant air dashing helps you to not overshoot your opponent and eat easy anti-airs.

4) Learn how to jump cancel. Not just for combos. Some moves can be cancelled into a jump, and hence, instant air-dashes. This is nice for mixing up for offense, but is good for safely creating distance between opponents too. The latter is something I don't do often enough.

5) Learn how and when you need to block high. We all suck at this more than we should. This is too gay.

6) Remember to Fautless Defense when you want to get your opponent further away. This can mess up ambitious block strings, but at the same time, be wary that you stay in block stun longer when you FD.

This is it for shit I think is very fundamental. It's all movement, and knowing what every last button does.

[Pikachu]

Kinda more for Chip/Alvin, but here are my thoughts on what to do after the above... if I can be corrected on this, please do. It'll help me in the long run:

0) Quit mashing. Double-tap if you need to, and then redevelop this habit when you know mashing is actually appropriate. Mashing makes you fuck up at novice levels, and you'll hit a plateau where you can't pick up stuff like...

1) RC. This is a step you just have to take. It's not nearly as hard as it looks, and it's really, really fun. Forget the FRC's for a bit. Just do this first, and forever wean yourself of supers... this way, you'll do it just enough to keep people on their toes, or make me eat a wake-up super when you really need to. You'll win so many doing this.

2) Get used to a few air combos. This is self-explanatory. There are very few characters than don't need to do this often. Don't get obsessed with them like I do. But be able to do them so you'll know how to take advantage of a situation that comes up.

3) FRC. You can actually kinda play this game without them, but this is just really good use of tension to press advantages, set up mixups, or do good damage when you need to. Testament is a good example of this, and one you'll see the most amongst us probably.

Play Faust if you don't wanna FRC.

4) Learn not to cancel every last pressure string with a special. I think we're all victims of this. We all should occasionally stop a pressure string in the middle, run in, and restart it. It's such a good mind game to use on occasion, and opens up tons of counter hit opportunities. The characters I play right now, Faust, Chipp, and Ky, all do this well at the right time. Baiken, Slayer, and Jam are pretty good at this too.

5) Learn frame data. No need to memorize every last move. Just know when a move is incredibly deceiving and seems to be vulnerable, but actually isn't.

6) Know what other characters are looking to do in a fight. This deserves a seperate thread, but videos are a good way to figure this out. In the end, it all has to do with what setups are available to lay down huge damage.

[buhwhyen]

Hmm.. Other than what Josh already said, I think the first big step for picking up Guilty Gear is picking a character you want to learn. Like..find someone that looks interesting, if you find a guy interesting..eww, but whatever. Learn their basic move set, what do the normal moves look like, which look like they'd be good anti-airs (they point up at an angle, see order sol's standing hard slash), which are fast, which have long ass recovery, etc.

I realize you probably won't be playing the first character you pick forever, but sticking with 1 character and learning the game through a single perspective is generally quite beneficial. Not only do you learn how one character works(for playing him/her yourself and for when you have to play against that character), but you also can improve your general game play.

The real reason I think this is really important is because if you just keep learning new characters all the time, you really don't improve YOUR game, learning new characters is a lot of work, frankly. You have to remember each character's specific traits and stuff(how they move, what moves are good, etc) and you generally spend too much time trying to remember every character's basic moves and combos that you don't get comfortable with any single character. And the difference between being comfortable and awkward with a character is huge. Once you get more comfortable playing a certain character, you can start experimenting with new pressure strings, new combos, new set ups, and just new stuff in general because you're not always busy trying to remember how to play the character.

SOOOO. Just pick a character and play it for a while, if you really don't like it, switch, but its better to be good at playing one character than being shitty at 5 of them.

Sorry if this is confusing and makes shit for sense, I'll add more and maybe clear up whats confusing once I get some sleep and stuff.

[Pikachu]

This is actually quite true, though I don't put it into practice as much as I used to. There is one crutch to learning a second character, and that's if you fall into a rut where you get really predictable during longer play sessions. It could just be a more personal issue for me, since this happens to me a lot, and I need to walk away from a character for a little to take a breather.

I wouldn't deviate from exploring, though. There's a fine balance between going with too many characters, but at the same time, if you don't venture a little, you may not find a character you'll be truly comfortable with. Just know that you do, one day, have to designate a "business" character. For instance, I'm comfortable playing Chipp and Ky, but if I entered a tourney right now, I would pick Faust without hesitation and stick with him.

[Duragar]

Of course, the big thing that would help expedite this whole process would be me getting my hands on my own copy of GGAC. Also, I'm finally genuinely interested in learning stick, so if you guys have any suggestions on how to go about buying/building one, that could be a good thread to start.

That said, I'm trying to focus my practice on Slayer and Jam. I go to Ky and/or Chipp whenever I feel like I'm in a rut, but mainly I want to focus on the former two. I know I'm really special-happy right now, and I really need to learn how to move around without using specials. I really take Brian's words to heart with the "Pick one character and push to learn them well," because of, well, Soul Calibur III. I basically spent all my practice time with him, and just occasionally picked up other characters for the hell of it. I was pleased with my Nightmare (even though I had a fair amount of scrubbiness in some aspects, and when I was playing you guys, I was doing everything I could to not ring people out with the BS that Nightmare can pull off), and it really helped to know everything that he could throw out. So... yeah. Big tangent there, but I mostly agree with Brian on that, but I can't say that I can play one character exclusively.

I really need to learn how to move around faster with Slayer (or at least know how to get around projectile happy opponents), due to his overall slowness combined with his lack of projectiles. In my opinion, Jam is the other way around - I let myself get caught up in specials and I'm not controlling my movement. I know I get away with a lot of little random things because I move around so much and it's not what people are used to, but it still gets me into trouble a lot more than it's worth.

I'm having a hard time visualizing the logic behind the number notation for the joystick. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just to make sure:
1 - Back-Forward
2 - Down
3 - Down-Forward
4 - Back
5 - Up(?)
6 - Forward

Dunno why it's set up like this, and without a reason for it, it's really hamstringing my thought processes when looking at combos.

Also, what was the button combination for RC's (and FRC's)? Can you RC any move, or should I also be checking out move lists to determine which moves can be canceled?

Okay, I think that's enough fuel for the discussion fire for now. Thanks for your responses.

[Pikachu]

Just imagine the keypad looking like this:

789
456
123

So you had it right more or less, like 6 is forward, 4 is back, 1 is down-back, and so forth. 5 is used to express a neutral position, as in an input without any direction from the joystick. It's used to express a standing attack, but also to differentiate between command inputs. For instance, everyone has a regular punch, as well as a 6P.

The reason this is used is that it's the convention for a lot of Japanese notation for combos, and is mainly used for newer fighting games as well as 3D fighters. I know it's a little hard to visualize at first, but just learn to see it as code (blonde, brunette, redhead...)

Some good motions to memorize are:

236 = standard fireball motion
214 = hurricane kick motion
623 = dragon punch motion
[4]6 = charge back + forward motion (brackets indicate charge)
[2]8 = charge down + up motion
632146 = standard overdrive motion

I don't always use this notation myself, since it's easier to type in the names of some moves, that are obvious, like Beta Blade.

Then there are other moves like Glitter is Gold (slightly obvious), Mettakiri (eh?) and Hitori ni Shite Kudasai (WTF). For sheer technicality in a manner that no one can debate the meaning of, the numerical notation is more consistent. Granted, nicknames can be assigned to moves too, but with this notation, no one can debate the meanings of nicknames and stuff like that.

As for RC's: Roman Cancels are done by hitting any three buttons among P, K, S, and HS. They can be done when virtually any move connects with an opponent, on hit or on block. What happens upon a Roman Cancel is that your character returns to a neutral state, cancelling any recovery the move had remaining.

FRC's are done the same way, except there is a very tiny window for you to do it, and there is no need to connect the attack with an opponent. Where this window exists varies depending on the FRC'able move, and not all moves can be FRC'd.

In training mode, you can turn on a small display that flashes blue whenever you do a move than can be FRC'd. The flash will occur during the frames you can FRC.

And one last note that for some reason I never mentioned in previous posts: ALL players, especially ones starting out, need to make sure their execution is consistent. Games are won or thrown away by good/bad execution.

[Duragar]

Wow.... that's all you needed to say on the joystick directions. That makes perfect sense now. Thanks dude.

[buhwhyen]

Don't worry too much about moving around the screen quickly with Slayer, hes more of the zoning type of character who doesn't just mindlessly run across the screen. Granted, he can and does rush well, but most of the time its not when both players are at opposite ends of the screen. More likely it'll be after a knockdown and/or you're within dashing distance. I'd suggest just watching some matches on youtube, though just keep in mind you don't necessarily have to copy things exactly as other people do them. I personally look at common attack strings and the distance that people try to keep throughout the match, stuff that would be easy for me to remember and pull off, the latter being the more important of the two. I have no knowledge of Jam so I can't really say much about her.

As far as building/buying a stick goes, it depends on which type of stick you're looking into; American or Japanese. Odds are you'd probably be a lot more comfortable with an American stick purely cause its not overly small and you can really abuse the crap out of it without worrying about breaking it. A MAS stick is probably your best bet as far as price, quality, and simplicity goes. Just to note, Josh has been meaning to get a MAS stick for ages, though the real problem with buying MAS is that they supposedly take a long ass time to get it to you if you order it online. I've read posts on SRK(shoryuken.com) that you can get it within hours if you go to their store, but its somewhere down near LA I think.

www.massystems.com/ProStick.html

I can explain the difference between the two types (american and japanese) but it'd take a long ass time and a shit ton of typing. Suffice to say, American sticks are going to be cheaper(money wise) and you're probably going to be more comfortable using them in general cause everyone has issues with Japanese sticks at first. Not to mention eventually you would have to mod your stick (if you buy a Japanese stick you'd probably get a Hori Real Arcade Pro which comes with a good joystick but a shitty ass set of buttons) with real buttons that don't suck ass and you might want to change the stick cause its hella loose(easy to fling around) and more sensative than a PSM'ing woman eating a bowl of frosted flakes.

And as far as getting a hold of a copy of GGXX AC, the only place I know of (and where I got my copy and Josh's from) is playasia.com. We didn't mod our PS2's so we have to use "swapmagic" discs. I think I bought it at the giantstore.com, but anyways I ganked the bundle swapmagic disc and slide tool for $23.00 or $24.00 and whatever the shipping was. So overall it costs about $100 for both the game and swapmagic disc, but the swapmagic disc allows you to play any Japanese/other imported games. While there is nothing invasive about the swapmagic discs, it does require a small tweaking to your PS2. You need to remove the faceplate to the disc drive, which is secured by 1 small ass screw and 1 or 2 small clips. I can show you how to do it or do it for you if you're not terribly comfortable with doing this, but the "mod" is easily reversible and takes a minute to do.

I type too much. Kbye.

[buhwhyen]

Oh, and you should probably talk to Josh about both buying one at the same time, cause he should buy one. Not too sure about how long it'll take to ship one, but I mentioned to Josh it might be worth it to drive down there and buy one/two if the wait averages a few months (which is supposedly had in the past, but since EVO passed it might not be too bad).

And there isn't a really good American made alternative, the only other way I know of is to build your own which actually isn't that bad, though with all the sticks i've built (and Alvin) the universal problem is that the PCB (controller board) eventually gets fried, dunno why. I recently, a few months back, tried to use a PS2 dualshock cuntroller, but you can't solder them and have to do a solderless hack (connecting buttons->cuntroller) which I failed to get working because theres 2 grounds and it just didn't work for me. Overall, it costs about the same as buying a MAS stick, since I don't think you exactly have a box to put it in already, so between the cost of the buttons/joystick(about $50 with shipping) and the cost of wood or whatever to make the box and you have to go somewhere to cut it and put it together..Just the time/effort involved probably really isn't worth it.

God damnit I should stop expanding on my thoughts. I type too much.

[Pikachu]

Typing a lot is fine. We kan reed end shiet.

Hmm.. road trip to get MAS sticks? Weird purpose, but it could be fun. GGAC is coming out on American version.. it might already be out by now for PS2.

Slayer doesn't need to move fast all the time, but there are instances where Instant Air Dashing is warranted. One thing that helps (and this helps with Jam too) is to make your opponent block a hit that has long blockstun that's also jump cancellable, and use that as a way to IAD in. Other times, if you can predict a jump, you can IAD in with a jumping HS to see if you can catch a counterhit with it... the result is ground bounce into LOL air combos. Overall, he's actually not bad in the air, with some good double jumping and distancing, the opponent has a lot to worry about because one counter hit can lead to them losing half their life... usually more.

Slayer actually is capable to moving sorta quickly if you get used to dashing with him, and he looks like he's really fast if you move fluidly with him.

IAD is a must for Jam. You don't abuse it too much with either character, but when you know the opponent is more likely to block because you've made them afraid of your shit, IAD pressure is really nice. Her game has been slightly less centered on her air dash stuff in AC, though, because she has a ground-based loop as well. Dumb broken bitch.

Oh, and an alternative for a MAS stick is the Street Fighter Anniversary Stick. It's not bad. Otherwise, you go with the X-Arcade, which actually works to an extent, and is the easiest option since you can just get it at Fry's. The problem is that the X-Arcade doesn't consistently work on all machines, and sometimes the inputs on later models of the converters can lag or even skip. They also don't like being plugged into a PS2 after it's been started up, so that's been a real issue for me being unable to bring my stick.

[buhwhyen]

So I was playing some Slayer today randomly and found some nifty things out, his Mappa attack (fireball motion with punch/kick, he dashes forward and howard deans the dude) can actually be mixed up by holding the button. So you do quartercircle forward kick (the longer dash version) and hold the kick button, he dashes and kinda sticks his hand out like hes gonna fist your ass but the attack itself never comes out and you get the dash movement. Its similar to a lot of his moves (forward kick and other random command moves) where if you hold the button the move doesn't ever come out it just does the movement associated with it. Its a pretty cool mix up that will aggravate the hell out of someone. Oh..and Slayer air combos are a bitch to do. I don't understand how they really work mostly because dustloop.com has a shitty slayer section where they really don't explain much and doesn't have a good list of combos. (probably because he doesn't really have any combos..more like he lands a counter hit and 2 hits later you're 90% dead). More random discoveries to come.

[Pikachu]

Slayer combos work in one of two ways, and I'm REALLY generalizing here...

In the air, it's a mix of j.k, and j.2k (the flip kick thingie). After the animation of the j.2k, you can do another attack, namely j.k if you want to continue. A scrubby rep would be like <launcher>, jc, j.k, j.2k, j.k, jc, dj.k, dj.2k, dj.d or something of that nature.

I dunno if he can pilebunker off 6hs against an airborne opponent anymore.. that used to be like, the best 2 hit combo in the game.

[Pikachu]

Go to the character specific combos section for Slayer. Most of them are pretty general, and gives you a good feel for what most of the Slayer combo strings are. I'm prolly gonna try a few of those out when I go home tonight after I'm done tweaking my .VS deck for tomorrow.

And since we're talking about combos, Jam combos all involve some wall stick, getting in close with force break puffball, then some improvisation between 2hs gatling into 6hs (2 hit), and using p/2p to gatle again into 2hs, and either 6hs or another puffball. What a ho-bag cunt. Combos involving the mashing of hs and d buttons? Sounds like old Sol to me. ;D

[buhwhyen]

I know the slayer air combos, I just cannot pull them off, ever. But whatever, you can still wtf huge amounts of damage off random 2HS counter hits. The majority of damage from the combos that start with 2HS go something like 2HS -> 236D (force break) ->5HS -> air combo. Though being the complete scrub I am, I cannot air combo with Slayer. So instead of air combo, I do 2HS -> 236D -> 236D(or as many times/till you run out of meter) -> 5HS. I also do random scrubby shit like if my 214P/K -> D (force break) gets blocked, I do another 214P/K -> D. Or I do other random crap tastic things like 5K -> 5K -> 236P -> slight pause -> 236D and then combo 236D till I run out of meter and then finish with 5HS or something. (236D seems to lower his hit box considerably and/or gives him upper body invincibility; I find myself going through/under quite a few standing moves, 5S, 5K, etc)

Also, another random thought about Slayer..he doesn't really gattling like other characters, he has all these weirdly timed links like 2K->2S->2D, for an easy to hit confirm knockdown, or like 5K->2K->2D, another hit confirmable knockdown.

The SLayer section isn't all that organized and I'm not so interested in picking him up so much as getting a better idea of what he does so I can help Chip/have an idea of what Slayer does now. So sifting through the 10-20 pages of the combo thread, most of which is spam and crap thats hella useless ain't all dat 4pp34lng.