Characters to play?

[Pikachu]

So, lots of us are struggling to find a character that we can really stick to. Alvin and I had this discussion the other night, based on style, or difficulty, and all the other deciding factors of a character. I've kind of come to the conclusion, though, that personal ease of use is a huge, HUGE factor. After all, if you can't use your favorite well, you'll just feel like shit.

There's a post I read on dustloop that summed it up really well, when it comes to difficulty of characters. The poster basically said this (not quoting directly):

Some characters are harder, for sure. Like Eddie, you have to hit your unblockables, and know which one to use for an appropriate situation, and of course, execute it. Slayer needs to have good timing for his funny links. Venom has his ball setups to memorize and utilize, and so forth. Compare them to other characters... like Sol, where you have to remember to attack, and Ky where you have to remember to use his projectiles.

I thought this was a funny, yet very precise way of putting it. So for all those who struggle, I'll say this: Figure out what your character needs to do. If you think you can pull it off consistently in training mode and in a real fight, you may want to pick that character. Otherwise, fuck it. Unless it's like, Potemkin. You don't want to fuck Potemkin.

[buhwhyen]

I hella agree with the comfort/ease of use with a certain character point. Since I've really decided who I'm gonna play...I'll just throw out what characters I decided to stick with and play at least somewhat seriously. Keep in mind, my play style is probably, actually almost definately different than everyone else's. I have the mindset of a true west coast player. I just rush that shit down. And with that in mind...

My main character is Testament. If I were to play in a tourney or something, I'd almost definately pick Testament. It should be pretty obvious that I'm very offensive minded and tend to rush a lot more often than not. Testament is a character that allows me to do this and at the same time remain semi-safe from stupid ass retaliations because of his net/tree set ups that you can randomly place into your knockdown/block strings or just place randomly when characters are at opposite ends of the screen. I play him for similar reasons why I picked up Dudley in third strike, his mix ups are retarded good and hes capable of doing good damage. And at the same time his movement, which is a huge factor with me, is still somewhat normal. His instant air dash is fagtastic (shitty) but he really doesn't rely on it like other characters, see Jam.

Potemkin is probably my second best character at the moment. I honestly think the real reason why I play Potemkin is just to Potemkin buster people out of block strings that really should be normally safe and doing annoying shit like back dash into Potemkin buster. These mind games are probably more annoying than talking to random people on WoW. His movement does bother me, though he can and does rush really well, assuming he can get momentum. The real problem I have with him, which is the same as I've always had, is he's hella abusable. (especially if you're a fag like Josh and play Eddie) He just has few ways (if any) to really deal with pressure from certain characters which is really annoying when you constantly play against those characters. Though..when I think about it, I don't really even play Potemkin as a real aggro character, I often find myself on the defensive more often than not and start rushing after I land a Pot buster or get a random head slide in. (the OTG after head slide is really the only combo that I consider to be required because of how easy it is to hit, the damage it does, and the position, hehe lolol, it leaves you in after the combo)

The last character I play is Order Sol. This one is hella simple. I was sick and tired of having to play Testament and Potemkin, Testament requires way too much forethought and effort and Potemkin just gets abused. So I wanted a character that was mindless aggro and didn't require all this set up crap and that intelligent play style shit. So Order Sol. His movement is actually pretty cool, its very well suited for hella rush down and he has ghetto ass tricks to land counter hits for stupid ass damage. (thx kaqn, hes like the John Choi of this game) You really just run at people throw out moves (he has a 3 frame standing kick, by the way) and eventually mix up into a throw and do his new dust loop which takes slightly more intelligence than old GGXX Sol dust looping, but only slightly.

Honestly, I don't think anyone is looking for characters with as much aggro as me. But at the same time, characters like Testament and Potemkin aren't necessarily pure aggro characters. I just play them as such because they're -capable- of doing just that. Characters like Ky can be played like Justin Wong, or hella aggressively and you can rush down pretty well with him as well. Hell, he even has some pretty good range pokes for zoning.

Oh..and just a brief note about Slayer, the more I play him, the more I realize how annoying he is to play. He has some really weird combos that are just a series of links. Random gattlings that I have a difficult time landing consistently, odd movement, weird feeling air combos, etc bother me. For a while it was really amusing abusing some frame advantage off his mappa punch and stuff, or landing random pile bunkers, or baiting out a 6P or something to do his force break Yun combo, but in the end I find myself more frustrated with him than not. His basic game is pretty easy to learn, but I think overall the learning curve for his end game is actually a lot steeper than it seems because you really have to get consistent execution of links with varying timing and you really should be hit confirming, opposed to just throwing out stuff like 2HS (launcher) into his force break Yun shoulder randomly, or stuff like when you land a 5K/6K, you really should link into 2K, 2D for a free knockdown/mix up, but its a lot easier said than done.

So I guess we can all see the trend in my character choice. I personally go for people who generally move well, or have ways to move across the screen, rush at least reasonably well, have a high low mix up game that actually works, and of course have ghetto tricks.

[phetus]

*DISCLAIMER* I DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT THIS GAME. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. *DISCLAIMER*
I don't have nearly as much to say on this topic, as I usually am the one asking who the hell I should play. I just wanted to say a couple things. Obviously, as per the discussion of this thread: Play whoever the fuck you want to play. Really. The more I watch this game and the more I read about this game, the more it seems like anyone is really playable. Obviously there's going to be tiers, and some people will need to work a lot harder at their damage than others, but really, I'm not sure there's an unplayable character. Play whatever character makes you happy. In the end, that's what's going to drive you forward. Getting better at a character you like. You might also consider that, people tend to like things they're good at, and dislike things they're bad at. Give characters a chance even if you think they're visually ugly(like I'm about to learn to play Axl.... even though he looks like a bigger fruitcake than Mike Bright.). You may find that a different style will become appealing because you can actually do combos and get damage in. The only caution in this is, choosing a character you really like, that you simply do not have the stick control or timing to play. If this is the case though, just do yourself the favor of choosing someone you can play to a more effective level, just like I said earlier. It doesn't have to be a permanent switch. Each long play session will help you progress in one way or another. An added benefit to this path of thought is learning how other characters are played/move and the move lists/properties. This game is very much like playing a card game in this aspect. You have to understand your opponents deck/character before you can play against them correctly. Each character has different threats, different area's they can control space better, and learning to avoid these is almost as crucial as knowing how to combo.

Anyways, Like I said. Josh and Brian may spit back that I dont' knwo what I'm talking about, but with my current exposure to the game. That's the way I feel. The added note I wanted to bring up though.....
Can we not give up on Johnny and whoever else you guys had deemed shitty? I don't believe in their uselessness. Even if most of his frame data have been shifted from negative to positive frames on block, it doesn't make him unplayable. I just believe the way he's played has been changedf a little. I don't know shit about this character, but I know Jon, Josh and Brian all know how to play him, not to mention the fact that some of you have dedicated a solid chunk of time to playing him. Even if he does end up being a little too crippled to play effectively, we need the exposure to all the characters. Our refusing to play him, doesn't mean that we won't run into player in tournaments who won't play him, and if they're willing to play him, they'll probably be a good deal better at it than we're used to. Let's give ourselves every advantage we can.

[Pikachu]

Actually, I totally agree with you. I like how you address the difficulty level vs. how much a player likes a character. I even ask myself that question when I play Eddie (like, should I continue with this assfag or just keep playing Faust?). I also used to have a huge thing about not playing certain characters. Despite what you hear me say, deep down, I've discarded this mentality. If you travel back in time to that first night we played GGXX at SJSU after the garage sale, and told me I'd end up playing Faust, I'd have just laughed in your face and told you that you were retarded.

The thing about "giving up" on Johnny: The root of what you're saying still stands, and it's true we need more matchup knowledge. Johnny used to be a big deal, but we've played against him a lot already, and he has no new threats to his gameplan, except crossup Killer Jokers, and this isn't nearly as scary as random standing kicks from Slayer. It's a matchup I've played a lot already, and knowing the matchup is easier than it used to be, well, my natural reaction will be to deem him a smaller threat right now. I know he can still hang with the cast, though, so it's not like I'll just fly in casually on a 6P from Johnny.

In any case, we may all need to play multiple characters to some extent to get to know the capabilities of the cast. At least we've kinda had to deal with Slayer's stupid ass shit... but right now, Jam is a major problem we'll need to learn how to deal with.

[buhwhyen]

Actually....I agree with Alvin in the long term. However, for the time being, rather than thinking about all these match ups and giving ourselves more things to think about, we should be concentrating on getting our own shit together. Knowing our openings for combos, being able to consistently hit combos off of our openings, working on our general execution(we all need this one a lot) before we start worrying too much about which characters we aren't able to practice against currently.


And this goes back to what I said before about learning too many characters at once. If we keep trying to learn all the match ups by playing 5 characters each, in the end, I'm honestly not sure how much help it'll really be purely because its time spent not playing your main character, learning stuff that can and often does mess with how you play your other characters. For example playing Testament before playing any other character will fuck your execution up so bad, its really not even funny. I know that I have some serious issues going back to Order Sol if I play too much of any other character for a decent period of time because I get too accustomed to their gattlings and their combos that I mix up which combo belongs to which character.


On the topic of picking up more characters..In the end for me, I stray from picking up all characters for the single reason that they don't fit my play style. And the larger problem that I'd inevitably try to make them do things most people would never do. So for example if I started playing Jam. Odds are I would do some stuff you'd see most players do, but overall? I think that playing against my Jam would definitely be a bad representation of how a Jam player would play. Would I do gayass wall stick combos? Yeah, probably. But would I abuse her force break dash 1000000000 times more than most people? Fuck yes. Would I try to full parry overdrives and other flashy shit? Uh, yeah. Would playing against me help me against other Jam players? Maybe, but probably less than you would initially think.


So really, for me, not only do I know I just shouldn't play certain characters, I know I should really just focus on a few. Hell, playing Millia is already a pretty huge stretch for me, but its something I'm reasonably interested in and is she really playable to me in the end? Hell fucking no. Theres a reason why you don't see 5 million Japanese Millia players anymore, but similarly to Johnny I'll still play her to learn her shit, not so much to play her all the time, but to at least learn her basic mixups and openings even though I'll probably end up dropping her. Though I constantly worry about how many characters I ALREADY play. I play Order Sol, Testament, Potemkin, Slayer, Johnny, Millia, and Ky. Overall, its more of a burden playing so many characters, than an advantage because I can't really focus on learning new shit because I'm way too focused on trying to remember the stuff I normally do.

[Duragar]

So... continuing on something I brought up in my reflection on our 11/03 session, I'm kind of fed up with Ky's lack of good damage. So, I've been thinking about what characters I would be happier with.

I kinda like Slayer - He's got style, and he hits helluva hard. But, my craptastic execution really shows with him, because his links are so weird. However, I think he would actually help me work out my issues with blocking and waiting out my opponents if I work with him, and I get a good deal of jollies from landing the occassional hit that hurts, while being defensive the rest of the time. (Though that's not the case all the time).

I've always had issues with the uber-slow tank characters (read: ASS-teroth), but I'm slowly becoming more and more drawn towards Potempkin. His shit is easy to learn, and also would force me to learn to be patient with my attacks. However, you guys seem to do very well when zoning him, so I would probably get frustrated pretty easily.

I like that Jam is finally something of a threat in high-end play now. However, I've been having trouble consistently using her gatlings, and using her specials at the right times, nevermind getting in to use said attacks. stupid stubby limbs. Noob Question - does her 5K hit low?

As a side note, I notice no one's been trying anything in our sessions with Baiken. Did she get beat with a nerf bat like Anji did? Or is it that no one really cares to play her anymore? I'd kind of be interested in messing around with her, because I've always thought counters are cool, but it might not be worth the effort.

So... Slayer, Potempkin, Jam and Baiken... All characters I'm interested in messing with. Advice based on how you've seen me play is always appreciated.

[phetus]

Leave it to a giant black man to want to mess around with a little jap chick with one arm. Shame shame Chip. (please don't hurt me).

I don't know shit, but I can tell you that unless you're able to IAD like a magician, you'll lose some of jams saucyness. I think you'd get frustrated with Potemkin, a lot of his moves have a lot of recovery time if you whiff, and even though he's decent to learn patience with, I think he's better to play once you have patience. That and he's a meathead who'll get lockdown if you don't have the intuition to move him at the right times. Up to you if you want to tackle that endeavor. Slayer, I intend to learn a little bit of, later on. I don't think he's a horribly good character to learn the basics and physics of the game with, not only due to his awkward links as you mentioned, but also due to his awkward movement. Baiken, I also wanted to pick up.... but I just... don't know shit about her.. and I'm already struggling to learn on the two characters I semi play(to which I really mostly play Sol... Robo Ky is just to take a break and see what I can do with another character which I know the moveset for. I'll pick up Robo Ky more seriously once I'm not such a fucking scrub.).

[buhwhyen]

Well...It really depends on what play style you want to try, really.

The main problems with picking up Potemkin when learning the game is hes so abusable its really not even funny (I learned the game playing mostly Potemkin back in GGXX). Execution-wise, hes probably the easiest on your list of characters you're considering, but he REALLY lacks ways to get out of pressure/lessen abusive frame traps unless you can do stuff like Potemkin buster(PB) or back dash into PB. His normals are good, but as Alvin mentioned, you do have to be careful about randomly throwing them out because they don't have good recovery and their hitboxes are effing huge. His damage is just generally good, with or without PBs. Though you'll find his movement utterly terrible unless you learn to Hammerfall/Hammerfall cancel (4[6], punch for the cancel). Overall..he is a character whose learning curve isn't so bad and he is most definitely playable against pretty much everyone but some of the match ups can be horribly frustrating. *note* The real reason my Potemkin works is because I've gotten used to finding openings for my back dash into PB (playing against Johnny in GGXX forced me to learn this) and just learning how to control space with Potemkin. Potemkin can actually control a good chunk of space once people start to fear heat knuckles and 5HS because both lead to situations people really really want to avoid.

Slayer...Honestly, I really don't think picking up Slayer as a learning character is a good idea. Personally, I think hes one of, if not the most awkward character in GGXXAC as far as movement and comboing goes. His combos (links) are not at all intuitive. Things like linking 5K into mappa is actually aggrivatingly difficult to do. Hell, I can rarely do it when I sit in training mode. And frankly..learning Slayer really doesn't help you be more deliberate or anything along those lines because to really land most of his damage you need to be random and consistently hit links. He seems really easy to play because his random damage is SOOOO good, but I think hes much better to pick up after you get a better grasp of the game because most things you do with Slayer are kind of unique to him alone.

Jam...I can't comment too much on, unfortunately cause I really don't play her, nor do I know too much about her moves. Though, I'm pretty sure you'll find she doesn't do that much better damage than Ky unless you can hit some of her HS gattling combos/corner loops (though I don't think the corner loops are absolutely essential to do damage but they do hella damage).

Baiken..is actually a character I've considered trying myself. But from what I've seen she doesn't do a lot of damage anymore, compared to back in GGXX for the same amount of effort. Just about all her good damage comes from air combos/air loops involving her j.D and either FRC'ing her j.d and IAD'ing back in for another repetition or something involving tatami IAD back in or something like that. Shes still quite good, but it seems like she lost some of her openings for damage, mainly I think they took away her sweep tatami launcher/random tatami launcher.

So..overall I think anyone but Slayer is a decent investment in time to learn for now. It more depends on whether you want to be more proactive or more reactive. Potemkin you have to really just wait for your opening before you can really pressure your opponent, Jam has a lot more openings for pressuring in general, and Baiken typically doesn't rush down too too much. She can pressure quite well, but normally you play her more defensively making people fear your counters and forcing them to selectively attack you. So..Jam if you want to be more proactive, Baiken if you want to be more reactive, Potemkin is somewhere in between the 2 previous.

[phetus]

I have to take back my comment about Sol. Where as, no one is _truly_ sure what character they will play in the end, it appears Sol will have to be one of my characters. With my execution improving, I'm finding new life in playing him. I'll probably continue with him as my main for quite a little bit more, and not ever really remove him from my roster. I've been looking around quite hard for some other character to pick up, but I'm just at a loss. The only character I seem to find some appeal in the thought of learning other than Robo Ky (which is on hold), is A.B.A.. I'm just not sure I need another character that just runs in and makes you eat poo is what I should pick up. I'm just getting such negative feedback on dustloop.com about the characters I had interest in learning. I wasn't aware Baiken had so little life, nor that her normals were so undesirable. I'm scared to start learning any character with low life, since I eat a lot of shit trying stuff when I first start learning. A fear which I hope will evaporate as my grasp on the game becomes more solid. My apparent interest in AXL was fleeting, after reading a little more into his gameplay and frame data, I was dissapointed and lost much of my desire to pick him up. I think that once I have learned him, I will enjoy playing him, but the task appears before me as a rather painful experience. I don't know why, but for a long time now, I've also felt a complete lack of motivation to even touch Dizzy. I just simply, don't care to play her. Her play style no longer amuses nor suits me. Faust is someone I could see myself playing a bit of, but it doesn't strike me as something I'll love in the end. Really, I won't know without playing more characters to the point they're actually decent, but I'm finding it very hard to get motivation. Zappa is a point of interest, but I feel once again that it's a bad learning character. I have the same mindset on Slayer. A lot of this doubt has to do with comfort level. Testament would be a good learn for me, as I have a basic grasp on his movement and movelist, not to mention I've seen him played quite a bit. This leaves something like, order-sol and May. Both which I know next to nothing about, but I everytime I see May.... she gets anally raped by some object or other. Dolphin loops just don't look satisfying to me either. Should I just stick with Sol and not bother practicing anything else at all? Or should I be looking to spread my wings a little and try to play some other characters? It just feels so weird to be getting better at a game... with one character, and knowing so little about how to play others that I'll play like total shit. Probably just the nature of the game.

[Pikachu]

Just the nature of the game. Everyone bitches about their characters. I do too, to vent frustration. Therefore, if you hear people complain on Dustloop, just know that it's the American Mentality. (Though I differ because I don't condemn the character that I'm using outright... and it's hard to say Eddie sucks.)

Just remember the Fuck Mountain post: Everyone in B-Tier is Bitch Tier. All players bitch about their characters in this tier. Baiken's normals, for instance, may suck in certain instances, but she can still rush and play frame traps pretty damn well. And you know what? Tatami is a normal. Fuck whoever disagrees.

Axl is less painful than you think. The trick is to learn the gatlings and cancels you need up close, and now reacting to the vacuum effects of random pokes into Bomber combos. It's also kinda weird to pressure with him, since he's less of a run up, tap tap tap, CH/throw kind of pressure, and more of <insert long string of weirdness>, <safe zoning>, <LOL random hits>, <run in with committed setup> kind of character. But if the style conflicts.. yeah, move on.

No one has the right to bitch about A.B.A. While it's easy to notice the instances she loses hard (and she may have the harshest losses around), people take for granted the times she wins by her Star Wars Kid antics. It's such bullshit to see "Go ABA! I like seeing her win for once." ABA still wins a good amount in matches that aren't recorded, too! She can win hard and lose hard. The players that spend their energy looking for solutions to ABA's problems like double keystab combos, frame traps to make the CH's happen, and knowing when to let go of Moroha mode are very apt to fuck people up. Her basic high-risk high-reward style was surprisingly easy to pick up, too... the challenge in ABA is adjusting your style to minimize the risks and having good blood management. I sometimes feel dumb for playing Chipp when I can go with ABA.

The only truly legitimate bitching I leave for Johnny players, and only up to a certain point, and I-no players, because they'll all have carpal in a few years.

[buhwhyen]

Random results from experimenting with Slayer/some other random people.

If you hit 2HS -> manbang upper, hitting a 5HS into air combo generally will not work because they get pushed too far. In this situation you can actually do 6HS into 5HS or 6HS into launcher of choice to get better distancing off the jump. If you're finding yourself too far mid combo, i.e. launcher-> j.k, j.2k(forgot the notation for jump command attacks), j.k -> j.k(usually the one that whiffs or the j.2k following) use j.s instead of the second j.k, it moves Slayer horizontally to mod positioning mid combo. If you do launcher-> j.k, j.2k, and here miss the normal timing for the falling j.k, try to mash it out or just hit it later than you normally would cause odds are you can hit a late falling j.k land and relaunch them with 5c.S, 2S, 5K, or maybe 5P into another rep of air gayness. If you see Slayer dandy step, block high. If you see Slayer FRC dandy step, block low. Slayer IK is surprisingly decent.

Anji really doesn't have dick shit for good moves anymore. His auto guard is....kinda there, but really really shitty. I can't find any new combos, really. Outside of his force break off of fujiin or whatever its called. And double butterfly is mother fucking impossible to do. He has this new command overhead that links/gattles into donkey shit, and only feasable (sp?) to use in conjunction with butterfly (block first butterfly hit, overhead, second butterfly part hits, link fujiin or something). Almost all his old combos still exist, but aren't much if at all better than they used to be. His damage output...is passable, though I don't see how people would land it in any reasonable manner.

Order Sol has no IK.

Aba combos are really easy. Really. Maybe not relaunches, but basic stuff is not so difficult.

Testament's IK is actually pretty good. And theres 5 million ways to get into man lands loops. I need to use HS barney more because it makes people die really fast. FRC HS barney after a gattle string and link into 6K man lands loop, in some cases requires dashing before 6K. Big trees are bullshit. Continuing air combos with enhanced webs is also bullshit.

I still do not like playing Robo Ky. Though watching Dogura is pretty inspiring.

Millia is a needy hoe.

Eddie is really weird to air combo with Slayer. You have to do j.2k following the launcher into air combo most of the time(boo lower damage).

Forget Johnny, his shit is way too hard. Even though he takes it in the ass so much. And generally does no damage unless you combo like fuck.

Anji is mildly amusing, even though his normals got fucked like Johnny's and he has no tricks.

Order Sol cannot actually punish Dizzy consistently after a blocked Ice spike with fag fear. Even though I manage to land this on Jon during matches occasionally. Order Sol needs a better non corner launcher.

Venom requires more memorization than most of my classes right now. (that means a lot)

I cannot stand dolphins loops. They're just annoying. Though stupid easy to do.

I do not understand how Baiken gets into her air combo now, outside of random j.s/jumping tatami.

Potemkin does a lot of damage if you can FRC. And even if you can't he still hurts.

[Pikachu]

I have seen some Slayer players use slide link into another hit like 5k or 5s into air combos after Man Bang. Dunno all the details and the distancing, but it looks really... well, Slayer.

Millia is a really, really needy ho. I considered picking her up, but didn't want her high maintenance knockdowns and moody air combos.

ABA double keystab combos are easier than I thought. I haven't found tons of setups for it, but the openings for it are very obvious. It's all in the distancing and knowing when to IAD or normal jump. The best thing is that her IAD inputs are SUPPOSED to be slower and lazier. WTF.

Played Testament again the other night in practice. Hit fag tons of reps with Manlands. FRC Barney with 90% precision. Wish I could do that in a real game.

Eddie 2-rep Shadow Gallery loop into one more unblockable = hilarity. And angry opponent. The setup for that scenario is uncommon.

I can't get the height right for Robo-Ky's air missile combos. I can go 2s, 5hs FRC just fine, though. My fingers hurt like hell after practicing that FRC, however. You have no choice but to hit the buttons fast, and therefore, hard (huh huh, hard). Horsie combos are stupid. When playing against a good RK, do not get hit by level 3 Horsie. Or Robo Dash.

[Pikachu]

Since this thread left off with the consensus that Millia is high maintenance...

I have been wondering if she may go up in tiers again. While I cannot pinpoint exactly how to improvise her air combos into knockdown, Kaqn and a host of other Millia players are showing a lot of relaunches and crap that not only get the knockdown into further mixups, but putting players into the corner as well, which is where Millia is traditionally very scary. Could this mean that players have conquered a perceived downgrade, using improvisation skills to substitute cookie-cutter consistent combos?

Honestly, I think there's a strong possibility she's gonna go through the same thing as Eddie did in the beginning of AC: a character with a succession of nerfs in one area, but with the ability to make up for them in adaptations in game plan to stay extremely strong. Having said that, she's still a needy ho.