Street Fighter 4

[buhwhyen]

I honestly don't think Americans will ever stop playing risky/unsafely. For the majority of Americans (probably ~80% of Americans who play fighting games), they, like you said, don't think while they play. Apart from the afore-mentioned lack of brain usage, a big part of this is the mentality of Americans, rather than lack of being punished for doing stupid shit. By mentality, I really mean more along the lines of thought process. The way most American players will analyze a situation is inherently different than a Japanese player. This is actually more or less an argument of 'yomi.' Yomi is basically the Japanese equivalent of the idea of a mind game. It gets broken up into levels, or layers, where each level is similar to how far ahead you think. This is actually easy to understand if you think in terms of chess. Level 1 yomi, would be the equivalent of thinking about the moves your opponent could do in his next turn, level 2 would be looking 2 turns ahead, etc. This is a dumbed down (shortened) argument for the sake of not writing a term paper length post for single point.

Lets say that its a Ken vs Ken match, with an American and Japanese player. If say the American Ken player gets knocked down, he might think that wake up srk is the best option because he anticipates a meaty.

On the other hand, if the Japanese player gets knocked down. He might think the American player would throw out a meaty, so a wake up srk would be a good idea. But, he also thinks that the American player might try to bait a wake up srk and just block instead. The point here is that the Japanese player considers more options than the American player because he uses his brain to also put himself in the other player's shoes. He realizes that there is a mind game being played and that he has to consider what the other player might or might not do. If you think that the other player is trying to bait you constantly, you play more cautiously and less risky.

Obviously the American player, if he doesn't suck anus, will have a similar thought pattern. However, I'm pretty sure that even if he realizes that the other player might be baiting him, hes more likely to throw out 'unexpected' srks because if he plays more randomly (less predictably) it will throw off his opponent. The problem with this idea is that it really only works once or twice in a match (again, against people with a working brain). The Japanese player thinks about how to counter a counter. The American player thinks when he does "this", I will counter.


On this thought (also another reason why Americans will continue to play unsafe), I've actually stopped trying to truly "mix up" my rush down. Throwing out occasional overheads on wake up, trying a cross up on close knockdowns, etc. This shit really doesn't make any sense to do against the majority of American players. Why? Because American players rarely adapt to the people they play against.

Say its another Ken vs Ken match. One of the Kens gets knocked down. This Ken graduated from SJSU, so he wake up srks whenever he can get the srk to come out (for simplicity, lets say he can srk 100% of the time when he wants to). If Ken#2 blocks his wake up srk, punishes w/ something (doesn't really matter what he punishes with for this argument), it might take 2, or 3 blocked srks before Ken#1 finally realizes he shouldn't wake up srk because they're all getting blocked (at some point they will realize waking up with a srk doesn't work). However, in the very next round when they get knocked down. Bam. Back to wake up srk every time. This is constantly the case when you play scrub - mildly competent players. Sometimes its not even till the next round. I've come across a lot of Ken players that will not wake up srk once, then instantly go back to wake up srks. Why? Because they either think that:
A) I think they've learned and now its safe to meaty on wake up.
B) They don't fucking think. What they're doing is a crazy good "mix up." You scrubs wouldn't understand. (I sure don't)
C) When in doubt, I wake up fierce shoryuken.

Realistically, I don't understand any option other than A, but its probably something pretty dumb and hella illogical.

Another reason why I don't think punishing hard will solve anything for the majority of players is that the CONCEPT of risk reward is just beyond most American players. They'll say they understand risk reward, but then they'll go on to constantly wake up srk after they get hit for a combo into an ultra that does 50% of their health and 5x the damage they would have got off a wake up srk. The likely hood that they'll wake up srk is completely independent of their opponent's super meter and or ultra meter. Actually, if opponents health is lower (in most cases this means more ultra meter), this generally makes them more anxious to throw out wake up srks and just stuff in general regardless of the potential risk. Which is actually the opposite of what should be done, assuming you really do understand risk reward. This is because (but not entirely exclusive to) SF4 doesn't follow the same risk reward schemes as previous Street Fighter games because of the ultra meter. I really don't want to write up why this changes the risk reward in the game, but it clearly does. The threat of doing ~60% off a single combo isn't something to just ignore.

[Pikachu]

Where I disagree about the understanding about risk/reward is that it's actually an easy concept to undderstand. I think when mentioned as even a footnote in a SF discussion, many players will get it. Putting it into practice is another thing. I'm kind of trying to point out a knowing-doing gap and trying to guess at a reason why (which then your stance on American scrubbiness comes into play for sure).

It's probably impossible to definitively prove or even correlate these factors in behavior without a ton of genuine research done into it (which isn't worth it because we have a good idea of what the answers are, subjectively, even without proof). But on the other hand, I still think the punishment plays some sort of role on the basis that it is the stimulus most readily available to change behavior.

On a somewhat unrelated note, people who fire off Ryu's Ultra might do so at their own peril. At the correct distance, usually any more than 1/3 of the screen, Reversal projectile-invincible moves go right through it safely, despite the larger size of the projectile. The charge time during the "ching" part of the Ultra counts as well, so characters like Rog can't ever be caught without charge if they do so during the initial animation of Ryu powering up the fireball. It's a good alternative to jumping because some characters' just get caught in the startup of their jump.

The window to do so it incredibly lenient. It's nowhere near as scary as trying to Buffalo Headbutt through a Shinkuu Hadouken like in ST. The great thing about remembering this, though, is that Ryu's recovery is immensely long. If you can go through the projectile, and whiff your move (I think Rog should be able to do this about half-screen using a Headbutt), you will definitely have enough time to do a jump-in combo, which is quite sweet.

Bison can EX Scissor through as well. I haven't tested tons of moves in this situation yet, but it's something interesting to know. Moves with potential that I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Viper's QCB+LP
2. Abel's roll, Ultra (almost 100% sure this ought to work)
3. Blanka EX Ball (though I am afraid the bounceback will knock him into the fireball)
4. Honda EX Butt Drop
5. Gief EX Green Hand (using invincibility to go through, not the projectile negation)
6. Dan Taunt xx Ultra
7. Cammy EX Spiral Arrow
8. Sagat EX Tiger Uppercut
9. Bison EX Head Stomp, Teleport
10. Akuma Teleport
11. Dhalsim Teleport
12. Chun Ultra

I figure it's a good situation to know because I get a lot of these thrown on me online (sometimes to kill me with chip), and I want to find a safe, yet effective way to punish it without risking a jump. And it's better than blocking.

Is there a source of frame data besides eventhubs? I really want to see the invincibility broken down.

[buhwhyen]

I don't think there's any invincibility frame data. I have the prima strategy guide (which is mostly useless). I know there's another strategy guide out there which sounds like it has more useful stuff, but I don't think it includes invincibility frames.

[phetus]

You guys have most likely seen shit like this before, but it's the first Fuerte I've seen since leave Japan last year. That B&B is just fucking immature. I know Josh was planning on adding a little latino heat to his game. There's some good normal usage in the vid. Either way, fairly amusing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EAtpz4xhO8&feature=related

[Pikachu]

Yeah, I can't do that damn infinite yet.

[sumason2]

That infinite is doable on the DPad right?

[Pikachu]

Let me put it this way: Magneto's infinite is also doable on D-pad, but I don't see too many people in the world doing it.

The input is [HP, QCF+P, LP] x N. You get a close fierce, cancelled into Habanero Dash, cancelling the Dash so you can hit with close fierce again, ad nauseum. Usually, you do the repetition a few times and end with QCF+P, HK to end with a knockdown when the effort is not worth the scaled damage.

[Pikachu]

So I just unlocked Gouken tonight, right before playing a few laggy games with Alvin, who needs a hard-wire connection (nohomo).

Afterwards, I played around with Gouken for 15 minutes in training mode and found some tard shit. His normals are of decent speed, and a lot of things cancel into specials. I don't have any hit-confirm BnB's with him other than jump in/FA3, low hit, palm move thingie.

The EX palm move is fucking broken. On hit, it puts them into that spinning juggleable state. In the corner, you can connect a ShinShoryuken off it. In mid-screen, you can dash forward and connect a roundhouse hurricane kick.

Off back throw, which is the only throw you should ever use, you use roundhouse hurricane kick to tack on extra damage, and ShinSho if you have Ultra. In other words, Gouken has a 3-frame unblockable Ultra. If you are feeling cheeky, you can super off it as well, but Gouken's EX moves are fucking excellent.

Sak wishes she had Gouken's fireballs.

[Pikachu]

Gonna try to see what shortcuts exist in this game. They're getting so bad where I don't even wanna try Bison's Ultra because I get teleports off them so often when I charge db.

DB, DF and DF, DF + button will count for a Shoryuken. I also read that DF, B can fulfill a Half Circle back motion. If this is true, then I'd assume DB, F will be kosher for a Half Circle Forward. I haven't tested the half circles yet, however, so I dunno if it works yet. The shortcut SRK definitely works.

The SF3 360 shortcut still works (F, B, D, U + button), and Hooligan motion (hcf, uf + button) will count for a 360 rotation. This is helpful for mashing out SPD's during a block string because a person can mash punch through the 225 degree - 360 degree portion of the joystick rotation.

And lastly, if someone can figure out a good way to walk forward and fireball, as well as walk forward and press a button for charge characters without a special move coming out despite having a charge (I press the joystick forward and then hit a button, and still get moves sometimes), please let me know. This is getting ridiculous.

[buhwhyen]

On a less serious note than my other post. F, B, F + punch = ochio throw? Lol.

[Pikachu]

Apparently, if you knock down Ryu, and he wakeup Ultras, you can just hold your stick up during his wind-up animation and jump over it guaranteed, even point blank (but I only tested this with Bison, who has a fast jump). This is way better than blocking because you avoid the blockstun, make a sandwich, look up a combo, then perform it all while Ryu is recovering.

If Abel wakes up with Ultra, Bison can mash low forward after the wind-up animation and stuff it. A meaty attack will get beaten, however.

Balrog Ultra is easy to deal with at distance, naturally, but you can't quite stuff it point blank unless you use a counter Ultra after the ching animation. The PPP version is jumpable, but the KKK version (haha, KKK) will certainly pummel you.

Ken's Ultra should be blocked. I think it may be stuffable, but it has a fast
and large hitbox where his fist comes out. On block, it has a recovery on par
with Ryu's, so one of the most effective punishes is to start a combo off lvl 3
FA.

Guile's sweep can be punished in-between the two hits, but it takes practice.
Block the first hit, and you'll be out of block stun as he swings around for the
second sweep. Use a fast move, 5 frames-ish at most to stuff the second hit. SPD
and other command grabs *should* work if you start your motion early. Not
recommended online unless you unleash a very invincible move.

[buhwhyen]

Ryu's ultra is jumpable by everyone. All the time.
In fact, if you have a saving attack charging and he throws it out, Viper can backdash cancel and block it from all distances past a full character length. Though, if you mash the backdash, sometimes you get 2 backdashes and eat the ultra.

[Pikachu]

Yeah, I was always under the impression the fireball came out a lot faster than it actually does.

EDIT - Last night, during an online match, I messed up a Buffalo Headbutt on reaction to wakeup Ryu Ultra. I ended up trading with the fireball with a c.fierce, but the hit killed my opponent for the win. Hilarity.

[Pikachu]

So it's been known for a long time that whenever two buttons are pressed in SF, the stronger one will come out (hence you get Fierce for hitting the PPP button, Roundhouse for KKK, Zangief notwithstanding).

Apparently, SF4 is SO lazy, that someone has discovered how to use this in a way to make linking even easier. I'll use an example to show how:

Ryu has a BNB combo with c.lp, c.lp, c.mk, fireball. The c.lp to c.mk is where this combo usually goes wrong, so the usual method is to double tap the c.mk to increase your chance of getting that attack to come out. The new method, however, is to "piano" c.mk, c.lk, then go on into fireball.

What happens here is that the game will recognize the c.lk as a c.mk input, hence a double tap in the form of pianoing. This actually makes tons of sense when you consider how the piano method results in unwanted EX moves in SF4. My theory here is that if I piano two punches in a fireball and get an EX, the game recognizes the second input as BOTH punches rather than the weaker one, and the EX move overrides the normal version of a move. In other words, when this theory is applied to links in the above Ryu combo, it registers: c.lp, c.lp, c.mk, c.mk+lk, qcf+p.

[buhwhyen]

Weird...

Every time I try doing: cr.jab, cr.jab, cr.jab, cr.fwd/cr.short I get jab jab jab short if I hit the fwd early. This method fails hardcore if you press the fwd too early (which is almost always what I do), then you always get a cr.short. Actually the only way I CAN get this method to work is when I literally press both buttons at the same time (or try to). I talk about this later on...I'm pretty sure it just has to do with the time between the inputs and how the game parses information.

Btw. If the game recognized rapid inputs, ie piano inputs, like you said, then wouldn't it also lead to random ultras instead of supers? It feels like the other way around T_T

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I haven't posted anything about this, but I've had a few theories about how piano inputs or just rapid inputs in general are handled. This is something I’ve been writing, more like keeping a log/journal of stuff I’ve been testing. It’s pretty disorganized and definitely unedited, but it should be pretty informative, none the less.

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If you've watched Japanese players play, you notice that they still piano their special moves (the same way that they always have), but never get EX moves, yet until recently I constantly got random EX moves all the time. After some off the wall theories, I'm pretty sure it just has to do with the way we piano the buttons (and subsequently how the game interprets rapid inputs).

I'm not sure whether or not the game does or even can distinguish the difference between normal and special moves, but for a second, think about how negative edging works. We commonly think that negative edges essentially count as a second input as the button is released, but we never really considered if the game would combine that input with the following button press. I.E. piano'ing fierce - strong - jab. The release of fierce + button press of strong = fierce + strong? (probably not the way it works)

I also had an idea that you could piano 2 buttons, or more but it seems too slow to do it this way. Inputs would go something like..
-Fierce - short/forward - jab/strong

Basically you throw in a kick input between each punch input, or vice versa. This...actually works to avoid random EX moves, but its totally unnecessary. The reason it works is simply that you don't ever accidentally hit 2 punch or kick inputs at the same time.

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Does the training mode input display show what the game registers as inputs? (Without accounting for move priority of course)

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If you head into training mode and just throw out some piano'd inputs, say roundhouse - forward - short (this is what I did, could use punches all the same). Watch the inputs scroll, (red = fierce/rh, yellow = fwd/strong, blue = jab/short) for the most part, I didn't get any combined inputs, but occasionally I did get a rh + fwd or fwd + short. Really all this told me was the random EX were cause I rushed the (I think) latter inputs which gave me jab + strong, or short + fwd. However...I tried just pushing two buttons, short + fwd (literally together). If you don't hit them exactly together, watch the input display (top of the display is the most recent input), it shows:
-short + fwd
-fwd

Lol? Yeah 2 inputs registering as 3. What this should tell you is that random EX => pianio'ing incorrectly, ie you pressed more than 1 button at a time or you pressed them so closely together that the game DOES recognize the second input as a simultaneous button press.

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So here's where I blabber again about how the input parsing sucks in SF4. Not only is the buffering time really really lame (long), but I think now if you push 2 buttons nearly simultaneously, it counts as the first input as a single input, and the second as both inputs. So, cr.mk piano'd w/ cr.short yields: cr.fwd AND cr.fwd + cr.short

This makes sense because if you're trying to make the input timing easier, then you have to make the timing window longer. But how can you make the GAME interpret non simultaneous inputs as simultaneous inputs? At the same time you have to consider the situation where rapid inputs (piano inputs) are NOT interpreted as simultaneous inputs. This particularly applies to people playing on a d-pad. I'll leave this somewhat unanswered here because I think I answer it later on when I distinguish between input windows from neutral and from jumps/dashes/move recovery.

But by this logic, we should also be able get Ultras off non simultaneous button inputs, which I cannot do (yes, I tried). Unless they coded it specifically so you can't get over 2 inputs this way...but I think that's very gay. Literally homo. I can, however, get Zangief to do a short lariat (KKK, lol) by inputting:
-short
-fwd + roundhouse
Literally as 2 separate piano'd inputs. Which shows up in the input display as: (again, read last input at the top)
-short + fwd + roundhouse
-short

Actually…what I said about not being able to do Ultras was not entirely correct. If you do a straight out ultra from neutral, ie you’re just standing there and crank out 2 qcf for Ryu, you should always get a super if you piano the punches. However, if you’re not doing an ultra from neutral, it’s another story. (the only reason I stumbled on this is because I was testing stuff with Zangief, and I can’t just straight up 720 from neutral). So if you jump into an ultra, say Zangief’s 720, and piano the inputs, you get an ultra (100% of the time when I did it). The input display read:
-jab
-strong
-fierce

Similarly, dash into 720 I also got an ultra with piano’d inputs:
-jab
-strong + fierce
-fierce

What does this all mean? Uhh…I don’t fucking know. The game must be buffering inputs during dashe, jumps, probably during other moves as well. This actually ties back into what I was saying about button input timing w/ Sagat’s Ultra after a dash. The game probably just stores the inputs in a buffer and executes what’s in the buffer at the end of the dash/whatever assuming the last input was at/near the end of the recovery of the dash/whatever. WTF. Why much complication and shit. Yes good grammar.

=> The game has to distinguish between the state your character is in when reading inputs (neutral vs ...non-neutral).

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Subsequently, holding down the buttons and releasing them gives you random results when piano'ing, I've had a few random cases where I think I got negative edged normal move inputs (which shouldn't happen). What I mean by that is, you piano 3 buttons, all kicks or punches, you see on the display more than 3 inputs (for non special move inputs, where obviously the game should recognize negative edge inputs).

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Really...all the thinking and experimenting I did (with regards to piano'ing) was to come to the conclusion that you just have to make a more concerted effort to push each button individually and not rush (lol bad music habbits) and tapping > mashing.