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Post by Duragar on Feb 4, 2011 15:21:14 GMT -5
So yeah... played Teemo in a couple normal matches last night.
7/6/15 in the first match (lost because we had a leaver), 28/7/7 in the second (I carried my team even though we had a Sivir and an Ashe).
Long story short, unless you get cocky and are on the bad end of an ambush, you can't catch or escape from the Swift Scout now. xD
On a related note... everyone who I've seen play Renekton so far is fucking retarded. Both of those Teemo games, there was a Renekton on each team, and they would all go 1/10+/0. In the second game, I got at least five kills because Renekton kept tower diving into mushrooms and eating shit. (of course, his one kill of the game was off of a 2 on 1 early game when he and amumu stun locked me for long enough to kill me...). They frequently try to one on one me, and between placing mushrooms at their feet, and auto-attacking while blind... OM NOM NOM FREE KILLS. But yeah, that's not to say that my team's Renektons were any better. Watched a guy tower dive into a 2v1 with singed and Zilean the other day. He didn't pass away... He DIED. Neither of the enemies were even low - he just ran in and ate shit. Proceeded to do that the entire game until he left, bitching about how he had no support.
I'm fairly happy with my usual build for teemo - not much changed for him early game. usually get a meki pendant and two health pots, and that tides me over until I can get Berserker's Greaves and Malady. After that, Nashor's or Bloodrazor (both eventually), then either banshees or frozen mallet depending on whether we're losing or winning respectively (still get both, just the order changes). This deals with just about everything with few problems. Tanks stacking MR might make things difficult, but carries die in a stiff wind of darts, and hit-and-run with mushrooms is hilarious. Most hilarious thing, though is random mushroom kills. "But I wasn't anywhere near that gu- oh. right. lol. Mushroom Printed (yh)."
Anyways, I need to level my collector's edition account - Teemo is too much fun to play. xD
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Post by feedback on Feb 10, 2011 19:23:45 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpSMhHSe6TERiot vs Bots was interesting. The new bots look hella fun. Can't wait to see if they work out some of the ai bugs. Some slight turret agg problems and they have an issue with trickling in after they die then rez.
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Post by Duragar on Feb 22, 2011 2:31:08 GMT -5
So... Just read a highly rated guide for Master Yi. It has several of his main builds, the standard DPS build, the AP build and a Lifesteal/Jungle build... And the guide writer's main build, an AD-Tanky Yi. leaguecraft.com/strategies/guide/7398-the-dark-arts-of-master-yi.xhtmlbasic build is Phage > Frozen Mallet, Warmog's, Atma's, Ninja Tabi (Merc Treads vs CC). Basically adding survivability to AD. The warmog's is interesting because even without damage items, Yi can farm pretty easily with Alpha Strikes, and wuju style with last hits, so the stacks can build up pretty quickly. Of course, the main downside is that the final build is expensive, thus getting it going requires getting some early kills or really good farming, both things that I need to work on, so it may be a while before I'm comfortable using this in real games, but it seems worth trying. From the base build, you get items based on situation. Force of Nature + Spirit Visage vs magic teams, Another Warmog's for t3h lulz, Bloodrazor VS tanks, IE for Damage, or Legion to help team. Looks interesting. goes 0/21/9 masteries, Ghost + Cleanse Summoner Spells, Dodge/Armor Pen/Attack Speed/ CDR Runes/Quints. The logic is that it can survive a fair amount of focus fire (which in High ELO games will be a lot of the time), but it still has decent damage output with Yi's naturally high attack and Atma's. Might give it a try in a few games. PS - Co-op vs. Bots looks like a lot of fun. I hope they implement it soon. PSS - Used some of my RP to get Chosen Master Yi. More like Jedi Master Yi, what with that lightsaber and all. xD White and silver looks good on Yi, imo.
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Post by dyuman on Feb 22, 2011 12:13:04 GMT -5
The two or three major issues with Yi are - Cripple RAPES you. You will die if someone cripples you usually. You also have a lack of CC so you need to have cripple yourself.
He's one of those characters that when he works, you rape, and when he doesnt, you are toast for most of the game unless you turtle.
I also recommend Cleanse on him as a second spell.
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Post by Duragar on Feb 22, 2011 15:43:02 GMT -5
The two or three major issues with Yi are - Cripple RAPES you. You will die if someone cripples you usually. You also have a lack of CC so you need to have cripple yourself. He's one of those characters that when he works, you rape, and when he doesnt, you are toast for most of the game unless you turtle. I also recommend Cleanse on him as a second spell. Yeah, that was the gist of the guide: You either get fed and carry your team, or you feed and you get homofag'd. He stressed the point of having cleanse to get out of CC, but he also recommended that you take ghost over exhaust, primarily because of its synergy with highlander, but also because he suggests that exhaust is better for 1v1 or getting singular kills, where ghost can help you get multi-kills or get out of harm's way, particularly if you're backdooring or jungling. He also notes that communication with your team is essential for that to work.
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Post by Pikachu on Feb 22, 2011 18:01:31 GMT -5
He's one of those characters that when he works, you rape, and when he doesnt, you are toast for most of the game unless you turtle. Yeah, that was the gist of the guide: You either get fed and carry your team, or you feed and you get homofag'd. What I don't like about this stated dichotomy of win/lose; carry/feed - it doesn't talk about the breakdown of success. Is it 50/50? 40/60? 90/10? I'm always leery of guides that take this approach, unless I'm looking for something janky to play.
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Post by buhwhyen on Feb 23, 2011 0:24:40 GMT -5
TLDR;
Guides really advocating building a non-tank as a tank to live a little bit longer really detract from the character design (which is flawed in this game, melee characters cannot be squishy) and your general usefulness to your team. If you can't do damage, then what else can you do as Master Yi? Frankly, nothing. (AP builds do nothing outside of alpha strike, which is not enough damage) *********************************
I hate any guide that even attempts to use probability to prove a point, even to a large extent if they bother to theorycraft with math. They tend to come to dumb shit conclusions based on incomplete information/assumptions. And even when they don't, you can't incorporate all significant factors in a meaningful way without doing some really disgusting calculations. Simplifications can give estimates...but eh, at that point why even bother doing real analysis and computations, just BS your answer and pass it off to people who don't know better than to second guess your "knowledge" and math skillz.
There's no way to really give any meaningful estimation of how likely you are to carry/feed based on one person's perception of likelyhood. They might say the odds are better than 50/50, but regardless, I'd be willing to bet that the odds are almost never is even 40/60.
Odds are meaningless in this case because it purely depends on players, both who is playing the character and the people being played against, and even the opposing characters. Stun heavy/cc heavy teams for example rape Yi for free. Very squishy teams lacking CC get raped by Yi for free. What are the odds you'll go up against a squishy team without CC? Probably not very good. How do you put this into numbers that are believable? Dunno. (actually...this is a lie. I actually do know, but I am far too lazy, particularly when I know it'll give me a useless result)
As for Master Yi, I really really really hate Master Yi as a character. He is an "assassin" type melee character who squished really easily. Stuns in particular make him a walking joke, as briefly outline above.
The "tank" Yi and "ap" builds are really attempts to cover for his weakness, which is that he just dies instantly in a teamfight. Spells don't even need to be aimed at him in particular, 2 aoe characters spamming spells and he can just flat out die without ever being specifically targeted (annie/ryze/vlad/nunu/anivia/etc). AP Yi, for starters, is a giant joke because all he does is alpha strike, his auto-attack does almost passable damage, but he won't be tearing anyone's face off with an AP build and alpha strike has way too long of a cooldown to be used even twice in a single fight.
Tank Yi is just a build trying to make "x" person's favorite character playable. Why are you playing an anti-carry/assassin type character as a tank? Why would you not build something that helps you actually do damage...So you can take a few more hits, last another 5 seconds in a team fight (honestly not likely if they actually focus you), but the real question is: what are you actually contributing to your team? You're "tanky" but not nearly as tanky as a real tank WITHOUT tank items. You have zero cc, zero ability to slow, zero ability to initiate a fight, zero ways to get people to attack you. Honestly, what good are you if you can't do damage?
Yi is also mainly an auto-attack champion, this means thornmail=cannot attack this champion. Every decent tank will buy thornmail if the opposing team has a Master Yi, this means you can NEVER attack the tank, or you insty yourself. Even on other melee characters, you'll never have a chance 1v1 if they have thornmail. AP is a way to "counter" this, but you really do as much damage with alpha strike as Annie does with a single incinerate, so why not play Annie and do even more damage? Highlander is awesome, it really does make you near impossible to gank in the laning phase, but you're such an easy target in a team fight that it hardly even matters how farmed you get.
Also...buying Warmogs + frozen mallet + atma's impaler is not really an acceptable solution. Does it sound good on paper? Kinda. In reality? Fuck no. How much does this really cost you in a game? -3k for warmogs -3.25k for frozen mallet (~1300 for just phage) -~2400 for atmas
So how useful any of these items on their own? I'd go with absolutely none of them. So for this build to be of any use to you, you'd have to get AT LEAST 2 of the 3 items to be useful. That means a MINIMUM of ~5.4k gold. Which isn't counting the cost of shoes, which unfortunately you cannot actually steal in game. So you need to get say 1300 for phage, 3k for warmogs, and 2400 for atmas (total of 6700g), but until then your damage bonus is what? +18? For comparison, 5K gold is enough for an infinity edge, un-upgraded boots, potions, and some wards.
How long into a game does it take you to get 5k gold, 20 minutes? more? So your build says that you don't do damage till the 20 minute mark? What if you can't farm well, then you can't do damage till the 25/30 minute mark? Keep in mind Warmogs is awful unless you can build stacks, which requires you to get it early on in the game, which actually makes the item just flat out awful for 99% of characters.
If you spend your first 3k gold on warmogs, you could have equivalently bought a BF sword, and upgraded boots. So not only are other people potentially running faster with some benefit (depending on boots), they're also doing more damage than you (by a lot). And in a non-happy case scenario, a team fight breaks out mid game (lets assume ~20 minutes) you don't even get focused or attacked, then you're free to do your damage, but what's the point of having all that hp if your entire team dies and you're left to auto-attack with no damage boosting items?
Right...and this was all without the inclusion of the cost of wards+potions, which you should all be buying more of.
I could actually go on a lot longer bashing Master Yi by comparing him to other melee champs, but I think I made my point. Guides really advocating building a non-tank as a tank to live a little bit longer really detract from the character design (which is flawed in this game, melee characters cannot be squishy) and general usefulness to your team. If you can't do damage, then what else can you do as Master Yi? Frankly, nothing.
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Post by buhwhyen on Feb 23, 2011 0:59:24 GMT -5
..........................I just read the introduction to that Yi guide. The author is a giant douche. Wuju oath? Are you fucking serious?
Darwin says he should die.
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Post by Pikachu on Feb 23, 2011 2:57:15 GMT -5
That was actually the point I was trying to make without stating it outright... simply saying that something will either succeed or won't succeed (just in other words) doesn't tell you much. Odds were.. just a way to give it context without going into Yi-bashing.
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Post by feedback on Mar 1, 2011 20:57:36 GMT -5
lol, LoL just released a Loch Ness Cho'Gath skin. Hilarious.
In other news Jarvin looks pretty cool. Caitlyn, Ez and Garen buff, minion buff, tower buff, and slight Janna nerf.
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Post by Pikachu on Mar 1, 2011 21:50:52 GMT -5
I play Cho'Gath. Dammit.
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Post by Duragar on Mar 4, 2011 18:56:06 GMT -5
Garen Buff clinches it... Only playing Yi for friggan customs. Never win with him anymore - get focused every time I go into a fight, regardless of when I enter the fight. Wheras with Garen I've been consistently able to sit in team fights and either absorb enough hits that my team wins the fight because they tried to focus me, or I do the killing myself with Spin + Sunfire + DEMACIAAAA!!! I want to like Yi, I think he's conceptually awesome, but in practice he's just too damn fragile and any builds I've tried to make him less fragile undermine his damage output, like you guys said.
Besides that, Dreadknight Garen looks badass. Dunno why it took me so long to make that purchase. Doesn't have the nifty scarf, but his sword and armor look way better in general.
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Post by Pikachu on Mar 8, 2011 22:52:17 GMT -5
Purchased Loch Ness Cho'Gath. This is a clear buff.
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Post by dyuman on Mar 10, 2011 14:26:54 GMT -5
Sticking to Rammus for a while.
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Post by buhwhyen on Mar 10, 2011 17:39:48 GMT -5
You forgot the nh, homo.
On a more useful note, co op vs ai seems to have gone live today. I will be trying it tonight/tomorrow.
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