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Post by buhwhyen on Apr 9, 2008 1:26:58 GMT -5
www.gomtv.net/classic/"GOM TV presents another StarCraft league following its own GomTV Star Invitational. Averatec-Intel Classic 2008 Season 1 will run for 19 weeks from April 6th, 2008. Unlike most of the other StarCraft leagues, there will be no preliminary matches, all matches are considered as a part of the knockout tournament." Yay 3rd singles league.
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Post by buhwhyen on Apr 17, 2008 19:56:35 GMT -5
Hmm..it seems that you can use the hold position bug to muta micro. It just behaves differently than if you manually click units. Personally I can't get the hold button micro to work all the time, sometimes only some of the mutas shoot, other times none at all. The range seems lower when you use hold position, and if your timing is off, the mutas stop completely.
Though..hold position can target more than 1 target at a time, which in a way is amazing and terrible. On one hand, you can kill multiple marines with 11 mutas in 1 "volley," but at the same time you're letting the mutas auto acquire targets and the AI is hella dumb. I think Jaedong actually micros mutas with the hold position bug, I saw a FPVOD of him and he never really clicked on specific units to attack most of the time against marines.
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Post by Pikachu on Apr 18, 2008 20:42:29 GMT -5
Huh.. sounds neat, but I think I'd rather click. Hold is so hard to manipulate because the range the Mutas react to is so tiny.
Tried the new maps yet? They're.. interesting.
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Post by buhwhyen on Apr 21, 2008 19:47:19 GMT -5
EDITED: 4/21 Added a few more things to the tricks/bugs section DISCLAIMER: there are a lot of good build orders, I just threw some of the more popular ones that I remembered out there. I could try to explain others if anyone's interested since I didn't mention so many for all races.
Just a random moment of (no homo) spewing out information since I have nothing to actually study at school today while I wait for my next class.
Some general stuff to think about... -Hotkeys should be used a lot. Pick a race memorize the building hotkeys, less time spent finding a hotkey = more time spent doing more important stuff. -Each race hotkeys differently (generally) because of hand placement to easily build units from a given building. For example, when I play terran, I generally hotkey (1) as my scouting scv, (2) as my first command center, (3/4) as my first 2 barracks. This is because I can easily hit 2s with my ring finger and 3m4m with my middle finger/thumb to create scvs/marines while I switch to my scouting scv to keep it alive.
On the other hand, when I play zerg I generally keep my first 2-3 hatcheries around (5-7) because I can use my index finger to hit the 5-7 and my ring/middle finger to hit sd for drones or sz for zerglings. -Early game hotkeys are generally different than late game hotkeys. The best example I have for this is my protoss hotkeys. In the beginning of the games I generally use (0) for my nexus, (1) for scouting probe, (3/4) for my gateways. Sometime around when I finish my first expansion and am more or less done building probes for the early/mid game I switch my hotkeys so that (7-0) are gateways, (6) is my robotics facility, (1-4) units, (3) being high templar, and (5) being my observers. -The F2, F3, and F4 keys are all screen hotkeys. Screen hotkeys save positions on the map. For example, F4 is defaulted on top of your starting nexus, command center, or hatchery. So if at any time you wanted your screen to be on your starting location, hit F4 and the screen moves to that saved screen. So this really helps macro'ing (constantly building units) in the sense you screen hotkey your gateways, barracks, or whatever, and potentially hotkey where you're attacking, and or where your units are rallied to after building. -Macro > Micro. Having more 10 more marines is better than 10 living 5 seconds longer. Unless you can micro marines like Boxer and Nada. (I can't) Theres only so much micro will do for you, having more units is always the better option until you can comfortably build units while attacking or doing something else. -If your macro sucks, build more gateways/barracks/hatcheries/factories. This is pretty simple, the ability to replenish your army is huge. If you can't constantly pump out of say 8 gateways to keep your mineral/gas under 500/500 then you should have more gateways so that you can queue 12-14 units or however many keep your mineral/gas under 500/500. Try not to queue more than 2 units at a time in any given building, its generally a waste and should be an indicator to build more gateways or whatever building. -Upgrades are good, but not as good as they used to be. Sometime ago, around 1.07? or something like that, upgrades got the nerf stick. You should still get them, but their priority is lower than they used to be. In general, zerg NEEDS carapace, protoss weapons, terran weapons. This is hella match up specific, but generally pick these first if you have to chose only 1 to upgrade. -For protoss I suggest scouting with the probe that builds your first pylon, for Terran the scv that builds your first depot (after it finishes of course) and in most cases I don't suggest drone scouting with zerg (unless you suspect a cheese rush).
**Race specific stuff** Just the general stuff..Won't be able to think of a lot of specifics, probably.
-Terran
I like Terran, but I can't micro M&M (marines and medics) for shit. Ultimately, I think Terran is the most difficult race to play well. Sure they turtle hella well and mass battle cruisers are the closest thing to an I win button in the game, but really theres just so many things to keep track of and you have to constantly micro your army or it'll die. My metal (tanks, vulture, goliaths) micro is just fine, but m&m micro is really a pain in the ass. Splitting marines is quite difficult when you have more than 2 groups of units. Not to mention getting them all to stay clumped when you move in to attack is less than easy.
The real difficulty in playing Terran is that you really have to change your build orders and army to cater to what race you're fighting. M&M will die horribly to A reaver or high templar, though they'll practically rape hydras and zerglings for free. Similarly vultures/goliaths lose pretty badly to hydras/zerglings, but do quite well against zealots/dragoons. Wraiths just suck up cock juice not being able to really beat anything in the game that isn't a scout (scouts are THE worst unit in the game). Science vessels are hella good, except they cost so much gas that having a lot can really fuck the balance of your army.
-Zerg
Another love/hated race. My real problem with zerg is that your economy is SO easy to harass. Losing an overlord early can lose games, building sunken colonies when you don't need them slows you down way more than you think, getting a slow 2nd/3rd hatchery, not having at least 2 gas will more or less auto lose games and really you need 3-5 gas (non depleted) end game to really be able to keep up with the other races.
The biggest problem for most zerg players is what is your opening build order. In a lot of cases this decision can determine the outcome of the match, because zerg has the most options early game in terms of viable build orders. The standards are: 1) 12 hatch - build drones up to 9/9, then overlord, spawn 3 drones when the overlord finishes and build a hatchery. This splits into 2 and 3 hatch builds to be discussed later. 2) 12 pool - the more defensive version of #1, instead of a hatchery you build a spawning pool. Leading to faster zerglings and a slightly later 2nd hatchery. 3) 9 pool - the old standard rush build for a lot of zerg players. Build up to 9/9 drones then wait for 200 minerals and build a spawning pool before overlord. This build is more or less outdated in terms of pro gaming because of the advent of 12 pool builds that include gas for zergling speed and are far more economical.
-2 hatch vs 3 hatch. This is another HUGE decision for zerg players. For a while 3 hatch was standard, but 2 hatch has become a lot more popular recently, though in pro games both are used equally, more or less. The real difference between the builds is the timing of the lair upgrade. The 2 hatch obviously techs faster, but at the same time is not able to spawn as many mutas/lurkers once the lair finishes. Overall you get the same amount of units in the same, though if you 2 hatch, generally you skimp on early zerglings in favor of a few more drones for early gas. The advantage of 2 hatch that made it so popular was that your 3rd hatch could be put at a location with gas, giving you 3 gas earlier in the game. This was possible because with (normally) mutalisks you could contain the other player in their base allowing you to safely expand. Lurkers also allow for contains, though its more map dependent than mutalisks.
Now..you might be thinking that Zerg has more decisions to make in terms of what to build than Terran, but there is one big difference between the two - when you have to commit to a build order. Both races have to cater their army to what they're fighting, but Zerg has to tech regardless of what the opponent does, staying tier 1 with Zerg is suicide. Terran have commit early on to either bio or metal (marines/medics or tanks/vultures/goliaths) because they have to build barracks/factories. Zerg has the option of switching by just building a hydra den or spire, etc.
-Protoss
My "main" race, also considered to be the weakest race for a long time (until 2006 or so). The main advantage for protoss is that their army is pretty standardized, meaning that regardless of what my opponent is, I more or less can build the same army with a few variations and still be alright. For the most part all protoss armies are ground based, revolving mostly around dragoons/zealots with a splash of high templar/archons to round things out. This isn't to say you can always make the same army against everyone and win, because you can't, but its a lot less match up dependent than the other 2 races. The main reason for protoss armies being mainly ground based is largely due to their air units: 1) Licking Alfred taint. (scouts) 2) Can't attack ground units. (corsairs) 3) Being more expensive than having a high maintenance girlfriend. (carriers)
Theres a decent number of solid build orders for Protoss, each having its own place. 1) 1 Gateway into nexus. This is the most common build order for me, personally. Basically you get your first pylon at 9/9 when your -8th- probe comes out (no homo). When the pylon finishes take a probe off the mineral line build a gateway and assimilator and queue probes. When the gateway finishes you build a cybernetics core and a pylon and build a dragoon/research range when the cyb core finishes. Once you have 3-5 (1-2 pylons needed for supply) you move out and expand. 2) 2 Gateway rush. This build is either for zealots or dragoons, depending on how fast you want to attack and whether your opponent is terran or zerg. Terran players can generally rip through zealots unless your micro is good or they're too dumb to use scvs, so generally you use range upgraded dragoons, against zerg dragoons suck (except against lurkers) so you just go straight zealots and try to get +1 attack upgrade (so zealots kill zerglings in 2 attacks instead of 3). Same starting build as #1, 9/9 pylon then 2 gateways for zealots, if dragoons follow #1 and get a 2nd gateway after building the cyb core/2nd pylon. 3) 14 nexus. The greedy motherfucker build. Build a pylon at 8/9 supply (with your -7th- probe), and build a nexus with your 13th probe, or 12th if you didn't bother scouting. This means you don't get a forge/gateway until after your 2nd nexus. 4) Proxy rush. This is pretty map dependent, but generally you send out your first BUILT probe so your 5th probe. Building your first pylon to the side of their base or in the middle of the map and 2 gate rushing from there. 5) Fast expand (zerg only). This build is zerg only because any other race will abuse your anus for trying this shit if they scout it. Basically you take your 6th probe 7/9 supply, and move it to your natural expansion (the expansion closest to your main base generally just outside the choke point or ramp) to build your first pylon and then scout with that probe. Based on what your opponent does, if he goes 12 hatch then you go for a 14 nexus and follow it with a forge. If he goes for a 9 pool or just pool first, you get a forge and 1-2 cannons before the nexus. This build is generally pretty safe IF you can keep your scouting probes alive so that you know what the other person is doing. Information is really key here because you only build as many cannons as you absolutely need so you don't fall to far behind in terms of tech and army size.
**Tricks and bugs** --Non race specific-- 1) Patrol bug. Units such as vultures and mutalisks attack slightly earlier than they otherwise would and maintain their speed while attacking allowing them to hit and run, seriously. Take a group or single vulture or muta and click patrol towards the area where the enemy is the unit will turn to attack and then you immediately click away (ideally 180 degrees of where they are, usually but you can click anywhere really to move them away) so that they hit and away. This is how muta micro works against SCOURGE. Don't use this except for killing scourge, unless you like dead mutas and no damage.
2) Hold bug. This command has more than one use, but its primarily used in conjunction with dragoons and goliaths. Basically it makes them shoot faster than they otherwise would after moving. So take a group of dragoons or goliaths, right click move and hit H to make them stop and fire. Once they fire click to move them again and repeat. The only downfall of this trick is you can't focus fire using this, so if you need to focus fire you still need to click on specific units. This trick can also be used with vultures but it does stop them completely. Its also an alternative method for mutalisk micro.
--Zerg-- 1) Hold Lurkers. This trick is faggotry. Try it sometime you will probably love it (cause you're gay, fag). Group your lurkers (that are burrowed) with an overlord and issue the group hold position (h hotkey). Now your lurkers will NOT attack anything that come near them. When you want them to attack simply click S for stop or attack and anywhere on the screen/minimap and they are off hold and will attack anything in range.
2) Muta micro. I've posted this up here before but the general idea is you group your mutas with an overlord/larvae so that they stack and you can get them all to shoot one target and or multiple via hold position. However you can also group them with any BURROWED unit, such as a lurker, zergling, etc to get the same effect without having to worry about the overlord wandering across the map or using the larvae.
--Terran-- 1) EMP nuking. Yes..I'll probably regret this (thanks Jon) but utilizing nukes and science vessels you can 1 shot any protoss building. Simply put, you just emp right before the nuke hits and watch everything die. 2) Defense matrix nuking. Even if they have detection, you can protect your ghost with defense matrix, potentially using it multiple times if necessary. If you're really a bitch, bring a medic. 3) Allied mines. This shit was banned in every starcraft league because its so gay. Basically you ally with your opponent and let him walk his army over your mine field and un-ally when hes in the middle of it and watch his army disappear. I really hope we can soft ban this gayness from our games, it really is unfair. 4) Eraser - korean nickname for gay irradiate. Takes at least 2 science vessels. Irradiate the other science vessel so that both are irradiated (and take no damage themselves) and fly over a zerg player's drones or army. Then LOLOL. Works against terran scvs too. 5) EMP archons. Archons have 10 health. EMP and LOLOL. Not much of a trick again, but still useful to remember.
--Protoss-- 1) Hallucinated arbiters. Tired of trying to get in through the front of a turtlely terran bitch? Just hallucinate a few real arbiters and run them through their defense and recall away! 2) Maelstrom psi storm. Pretty gay if you can maelstrom units at a choke point and storm behind the units that are trying to path past the maelstromed units. 3) Feedback. Not really much of a trick, but no one ever uses it except in rare cases in pro games. This is probably the better irradiate against defiliers. Does damage = energy the unit has and I think the unit loses all energy as well. Insties most defiliers and sometimes science vessels. 4) Observer bug. Basically when a Terran missile turret is being built, place an observer directly on top of the turret. If done correctly the turret is unable to attack the observer. Not sure if this works with other detectors like spore colonies/photon cannons. 5) Mutalisk hate. Basically just takes a lot of gas, but if you really want to give someone the finger for trying to muta harass quick tech to templar archives get 2 high templar, 2 dark templar, and research maelstrom. Morph both the archon and dark archon as soon as you can then just maelstrom the mutas. Takes about 3-4 archon hits to kill a stack of mutas. Then you should proceed to LOLOL in the zerg player's face and kill him.
I'll probably edit this or add another post, class is starting soon. I can add more specific stuff if anyone has ideas as to what.
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Post by Pikachu on Apr 21, 2008 23:28:33 GMT -5
I don't see why we don't outright ban ally mines in our games, and have Chip shank/powerbomb/rob the person who does that. There's doing stupid shit, and then there's stuff that borderlines unethical, and ally mines crosses the line I think.
When is it a good time to transition from Muta harass to lurkerlings? Am I supposed to be building the lurker tech slowly as I harass, or is it a little more sudden than that? Or does it always depend on what Terran is doing? Sorry to dump these questions on you like that, because I know there's no clean answer, but my feel for timing sucks. I'm really looking for a semi-guideline-most-of-the-time-is-safe sort of answer when you have a moment.
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Post by buhwhyen on Apr 21, 2008 23:47:12 GMT -5
EDIT: My other post is already too long, so I'm just gonna add on a few more things I just remembered at the end of this post.
Most players that don't have Jaedong or Savior like muta harass tend to get the hydra den down after they make their 11th muta and research lurker form whenever they have the resources. I'd say this is really the best way to do it, this way while lurker form is morphing you start massing lings and possibly expanding once and then morph around 10 lurkers when you have enough gas. Though one thing to keep in mind is where your opponent's army is. I assume most of the muta harass will be against Terran opponents since archons more or less shut down muta harass, so if the M&M army moves to the middle of the map you should get 2-3 lurkers as soon as you can and place them directly behind your sunken line (should have 3-4 sunkens generally if the Terran looks like they're gonna push), rather than saving up gas and expanding. Zergling speed should be upgraded before your spire finishes, generally its the first 100 gas after the lair upgrade if you went 2 hatch, or before the lair tech if you go 3 hatch.
In general, unless you're killing a lot of scvs/marines/medics, you really shouldn't be making too many more mutalisks outside your original 11. Mutas are really just a good way to gain map control and contain your opponent, opposed to lurkers which are generally the way to destroy M&M armies.
******* -Carrier micro. The basic idea here is that you move your carriers in range to attack (get the interceptors out) and then move your carriers back out of range while your interceptors finish your target. To do this you simply move towards your target, right click attack a target and right click to move your carriers back. The result is your interceptors stay attacking and your carriers are free to move. If you use the attack move command, (A) hotkey and click without a specific target and try to move back, the interceptors will return to the carrier without finishing a kill.
-Attacking while moving with flying units. Mostly for chasing down running units. This is true for flying units that aren't carriers, battle cruisers, guardians and I think devourers too. (So it works for mutas, corsairs, wraiths, the important units anyways) To do this, you just right click a lot (seriously). Right click in front of the running unit then right click on a unit to attack it or use the attack move (A hotkey and left click on the screen somewhere) and immediately right click to keep your units moving. Just repeat this series of moving, attacking, and moving again.
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Post by Pikachu on Apr 23, 2008 18:53:50 GMT -5
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Post by buhwhyen on Apr 28, 2008 22:23:09 GMT -5
EDITED: ADVLoader failure 2 things that I've noticed from recent playing sessions. 1) Get detection against the computer. They will get DTs, they will get lurkers ,and killing observers is never a bad thing. 2) If you have more than 1000 minerals on a regular basis (really if you have more than 600 or so on a regular basis) means that you aren't macro'ing enough. Either build more hatcheries/gateways/factories/barracks or try to build units constantly. This does not mean queue 2-3 units in fewer barracks/gateways/factories. In fact you should try avoiding queuing more than 1-2 units at a time. To be honest, constantly building units is probably the biggest hurdle for all rts players. I still don't macro as well as I could, and its probably the single largest thing that causes most players to plateau. APM program to check APM, build orders, and some other stuff in replay files. Requires no installation. The numbers aren't perfect because they don't include minimap clicks, f2-f4 inputs and a few other obscure inputs, but overall its helpful to tell when you tend to slow down during a game. BW Chart link under the download tab on the left bwchart.teamliquid.net/index.phpThis other program I just recently found is supposed to show your apm live during games and during the replay file itself. Other noteworthy things include low apm indicator, some sound goes off when your apm drops below a preset amount (that you can adjust) and stat displays during replays. Stat displays are basically unit count and resources gathered every minute and I think units produced per minute. ADVLoader 2.1 star-soft.ru/forum/index.php?topic=2.msg13#newThe ADVLoader doesn't seem to work with Ahzz AI, I think you need to launch starcraft from the ADVLoader menu?
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Post by Pikachu on Apr 29, 2008 17:05:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I have that macro problem a lot. It's such a knee jerk reaction to see a lot of minerals and spam my unit (no homo) queue to spend it so it feels like I'm using my resources. I've worked on improving that, but I'm far from perfect.
I forget to expand past my third gas, and even then, I go to third gas late as well. My biggest hurdle is an effective mid-game.. it's really hard.
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Post by buhwhyen on May 1, 2008 5:30:25 GMT -5
WTF @ MSL groups. The maps for MSL are: Othello, Colosseum, Tiamat and Athena. The latter 2 being new new maps, both look insane. My initial thoughts looking at them were "Like...why?" Pictures of the new MSL maps are at: www.teamliquid.net/Tiamat = I guess they want to see Flash lose more. Otherwise its just a macro/cheese fuckfest. Athena = Retro Longinus. Bases/expos are in the same general locations, minus in the middle of the map. Both maps = WTF gas. And it looks like they want to make it near impossible to tank push. MSL GROUPS: Take particular note of Group B and F - Group D and G suck too. Seriously? wtf. Group A: (P)Bisu vs (Z)Jaedong (T)Hwasin vs (T)FrOzean Group B: (P)JangBi vs (P)Anytime (P)Much vs (P)13. free Group C: (P)Kal vs (T)fOrGG (Z)type-b[s.g] vs (P)HerO Group D: (T)Mind vs (Z)Calm (T)Memory vs (T)Lomo Group E: (T)NaDa vs (P)LuCifer (T)Goodfriend vs (Z)Shark Group F: (T)Light vs (T)fantasy (T)firebathero vs (Z)sAviOr Group G: (T)UpMagiC vs (T)Canata (T)Sea vs (Z)Luxury Group H: (T)Flash vs (Z)YellOw[ArnC] (Z)Kwanro vs (P)YoonJoong
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Post by Pikachu on May 1, 2008 17:51:34 GMT -5
Group A looks pretty crazy as well. Bisu and Jaedong right off the bat? Almost a waste.
FBH vs. Savior again? I hope Savior has a good moment to reduce FBH back down to a whimpering little child. That would make me happy, though I'm not holding my breath.
Edit - Bisu vs. Jaedong worth watching.
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Post by Pikachu on May 6, 2008 1:12:02 GMT -5
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Post by buhwhyen on May 6, 2008 21:37:52 GMT -5
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Post by buhwhyen on May 15, 2008 23:49:13 GMT -5
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Post by Pikachu on May 16, 2008 18:10:10 GMT -5
Huh, I dunno how I missed Hwasin vs. Sea. On paper, that ought to be a match worth watching, because they can at least play. But... yeah. That's just retarded.
The other ones I've watched. Lecaf has raped so hard in Proleague, but they've also lost to some top teams as well. Guess we'll see if they just win against them when it really counts.
I want to see Samsung Khan languish in mediocrity and/or crappiness, and I want to see KAF beat down eSTRO so they're not last place anymore.
Btw, did you see Much lose to some new guy a week or two back? It was in the GomTV Classic league. That was a bit surprising, since the other n00bs that got paired up with established pros for a rapefest weren't quite up to par.
Edit - In the Hwasin/Sea match, there were some nice looking Korean girls who went up to them to notify them that their match was being declared a draw because they were both being Far East Coast. Couldn't they have just had the girls go up to both of them and say, "I'll suck your dick if you would just attack."
Could you imagine the insane micro that we'd see? It'd be the best game ever.
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